Episode 29 - Chad and Ryan Hanson of Sustainable 9 Design + Build

Written By Mark Williams

Setting a New Standard for Healthy and Sustainable Homes: Implementing green decisions and creating more energy efficient options.

Chad and Ryan Hanson have loved architecture since they can remember. After establishing their start in real estate by flipping houses, they left their corporate IT days behind and have never looked back. With the knowledge gained from their flipping experience as well as the following they developed because of it, they soon made the transition to building clients their own custom homes. Realizing there was not a market for sustainable building in their area, they founded Sustainable 9 Design + Build. Their company is dedicated to utilizing greener building science techniques to build healthy, sustainably focused, energy efficient housing. Tune in as they break down why electric is the more sustainable option and specific changes you can make to start building greener. They also address the problem of green washing and how to identify false sustainable marketing, so be sure to tune for more!

Listen to the full episode:

 
 

About Sustainable 9 Design + Build

Founded by brothers, Chad and Ryan Hanson, back in 2008, we had a dream of building better homes, not just flipping them. Sustainable 9 Design + Build creates homes for tomorrow, today. From non-toxic materials to clean air, PV solar, and everything in between–we took the leap to make it happen.

We've built a dedicated team that's committed to creating sustainable, high-performing homes that are architecturally distinct, design-forward, and custom-crafted.

Resources

  • 00:00

    All our clients have come to us, you know, they're, they might not be the biggest green nerd. But when they see all of the stuff put together and they see the stuff like in Ukraine and stuff, they, they look at that and say, okay, and all electric house, they might just be a complete numbers person and looking at it like, hey, if I can I put solar on this house, I could offset my entire heating, cooling, electrical load everything.

    Mark D. Williams 00:35

    Today on the curious builder, we have Ryan and Chad Hanson from sustainable nine homes. And they're a really interesting company because they really before just all the climate change was really in the paper every day, they really dialed down on what sustainability was for them. And so they embrace it both in their name, and then their methodology. And they really attracted their clientele to them for their expertise in energy conservation. And so we really spend actually, the majority of the time just talking about sustainable products. So if you're into that you're gonna love this episode, we really get to dive deep into Ryan's brain, and Chad's brain to just talk about how they're structuring all this together. And in Minneapolis, they've also talked a little bit about the 2040 plan and just developing higher density homes in the Linden Hills community. So without further ado, here's Ryan and Chad Hansen.

    Mark D. Williams 01:32

    All right, welcome to the curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host today I am joined by Chad and Ryan Hanson from sustainable nine. Thanks for coming on, guys.

    01:39

    You bet. Yep. Thank you.

    Mark D. Williams 01:40

    Well, you guys are located in Linden Hills, Minneapolis. And once you tell us a little bit about your origin story. I mean, I've known you guys now for probably five, six years. I remember you had a house in the great homes that came through first. Yep. And you had the green roof garden. And I just had kind of a transitional kind of modern vibe that you're known for now. But for those that don't know you, why don't you tell us a little bit about your history and be who you

    02:02

    are? Sure. Go ahead, Shadow

    02:03

    Chester. Yeah, well, we're small town boys that grew up in the woods. And we never stopped loving architecture from a young early age. But we both started in IT and marketing, believe it or not, did that for about five to 10 years and then got into real estate 20 years ago, this year, and never looked back. We just kind of took a left turn straight out of the corporate world, tired of the desk job, basically, and just kind of had a knack for design. So we started, started small, started acquiring properties, flipping flipping that house, if you will, and did all the work ourselves from the painting and some of the carpentry to, you know, just the sweeping of the job sites. And we learned a lot doing that and started to get get a following from all the work that we had done. And so we started getting clients to ask us to build a house for them. And so that's that's how it got started.

    Mark D. Williams 03:02

    That's just now you said small town. Is that from Minnesota or what? Yeah, Willmar, Minnesota

    03:05

    grew up north of the town in the woods about 10 miles

    Mark D. Williams 03:09

    in Where did you guys start doing your initial flips and investments?

    03:12

    Mostly in Minneapolis? Yeah, South Minneapolis. So we did some in St. Paul, too, but it was mostly Minneapolis I think is where we started. It's a Chad Chad forgot one point. We are parents when we were really young. They used to always, we lived in Willmar. So we'd come up to the cities for our truck like shopping trips. Yeah. But they would always coincide it I think it because it was free entertainment. They would coincide it with the Parade of Homes. Yeah. So we would go to the parade homes. We grow the dream homes. We were like young. Yeah, I'm talking like 789 10 years would have been that what 80s and 90s 80s or 90s? Yeah, well, actually 80s back then. Yeah. But yeah, it was. It was great. I

    03:51

    think we should say 90s. That makes me so yeah, yeah,

    03:53

    that makes me feel older. they're younger, I should say. The but no, I think and instill this early age just about design and cool houses. And here we are building them today.

    Mark D. Williams 04:04

    You guys probably know this. But you know, the Parade of Homes is celebrating its 75th anniversary right now. Oh, so this year? Yeah. And it's the oldest in the country. Yeah, we just got some similar story where similar ages, you know, my dad was a builder and we had homes in the great homes. In fact, I think they had one of the first homes in the dream homes. It was in deer run in Victoria. Oh, wow. And I remember because I grew up with it without a TV, which probably explains what's wrong with me. Anyway, but they had a DVD player. No, the blu ray. I don't know what it was was before those. And it was it looked like a giant Frisbee. Oh, laser did laser desk. Thank you. And they had to remember the movie. So Charlie Sheen and whoever it was Navy SEALs. And I remember when I was probably a high schooler I was like, Oh, this is amazing. So we went to the dream home to watch it. It was like going to a movie. It was amazing. Anyway, that's my dream home, bought a golf cart. And I thought oh man anyway, anyone who could have a golf cart and a house must just be doing this live.

    04:55

    Yep. Like they've made it. They've made

    Mark D. Williams 04:57

    it if you have a golf cart custom golf. Yeah. and you've got it totally. Okay, so you're Wilmer, you're come up to the cities. Yeah. You're seeing the big cities. Did you guys move up here? Like why did you start your you must have been already here. I'm guessing when you started going

    05:09

    to college here? Yeah, locally? Or what? I wasn't Augsburg, Eagle. And he was a Hamlin Piper Piper. Viper. Yeah, yeah, sure. And then our parents moved up to and so now they actually are involved in our business. So they're really they retired from health care. And our mom is our wonderful office manager. She answers the phone. It's amazing. And our dad is the gofer, he just kind of runs around and does whatever we asked him. It's so funny. You know, we have dissimilar to you guys kind of a family business. They're not actively involved anymore. But

    Mark D. Williams 05:36

    my mom who is she's in her 70s Now, but she would be actual often be at our parade homes, because on the weekends, she just wants to be around her mother. She knows we they built about 1000 homes in their career. I can't tell you how many homeowners that we work with years later said one of the reasons why we worked with you is because of kind of the family nuances. She's like, you know, in my mom can talk to anyone for a long period of time. And whether they want to or not, is another question. But you know, they'd be up in the bonus room, and I thought the couple would be gone. And like an hour and a half later, this couple will come out of the room and like they just end up like, Oh, we've been talking to your mother. She's sweet. We know all about you. And I was like, Man, you can I mean, you can't you could not impress your story upon somebody sadder than that. But it anyway, just it does speak to the personal nature of a home. Sure. And I think it does actually have no, we didn't do that obviously, on on purpose, but it just is who we are. And so

    06:27

    we had my father in law, once said about my, my mother, she He said, Your mother is quietly powerful. Yeah. And I really, really resonated because that's exactly how she is she can talk to the President of the United States one minute in a in a homeless person, the next it's down on their luck and treat them the exact same way. Right. And, and so I think that's they've instilled those values in us. And, but they're a big part of our success. You know, they're they're salespeople, but they're not intending to be that's just their nature is that they'll talk to anyone for for hours at a Parade of Homes yet.

    Mark D. Williams 07:04

    I'm coming to your next home, your mom, actually, I'll bring my mom, it'll be

    07:09

    you will not know how many times they've helped us chatting, they are running late. And they're like, we've we're here, we've got the lights on, we've got the music, and you know, everything is ready to go walk in and, you know, right at noon, you know, right when the parade starts, or the artisan tour starts. It's a huge help like Chad's every day, it's just like, our mind will just sit there and talk to the most random people. And it's like, oh, that person just became a lead, you know? Yeah, that's great.

    Mark D. Williams 07:35

    I think connecting with people on a personal level, I think, again, you can't overemphasize how personal a home is. I've mentioned it many times on the podcast, you know, other than like, planning for your wedding. You know, planning is so personal, there's so much emotion, and it can be good. You know, a lot of times it's builders, obviously, we sometimes will connect and say, you know, hey, this is emotional drag, and I think you do it almost for therapy with each other. But ultimately, most of it is very uplifted. We couldn't continue to do this for your 20 years. I'm on your 19 you couldn't do this for as long as we have, if it were if the emotion wasn't uplifting, I mean, if you had, it just wouldn't be possible, you know, you'd be fried. And so it is a very rewarding business. I know sometimes we, you know, there's obviously stories out there of this, that and another thing and it goes both ways, too, right. It's just a very emotional roller coaster driven process.

    08:19

    Yeah, that is the biggest purchase decision most people are gonna make in their lives. So yeah, naturally comes with a lot of emotions.

    Mark D. Williams 08:26

    Going back to the beginning, when you guys, your name is always intrigued me, I suspect you get this a lot sustainable mine. Tell me about what that name means. And when did it Did you know that from day one, I know some of the things it's associated with. But I want people especially outside of Minnesota that are listening to this to understand a little bit more of your story?

    08:44

    Sure. Yeah. It kind of start for me, it started a little over 20 years ago, before we formed the company, I was looking at building my first home and I went out and found a lot and it was ready to build. And I was quite frustrated, frankly, that nobody seemed to really any of the builders that I interviewed at that time really didn't have any idea about building science, what it takes to make a house more sustainable, more healthy. I think that's a piece that we can talk about today. But it's a piece that gets forgotten. Everybody thinks oh solar and geothermal well that's what makes a house sustainable. But a lot of it is also the the products that we're using the house can't be awful to breathe, you know, you can't have all these toxins that are off gassing. And so anyway, that experience at the time in my IT and marketing career was almost galvanized me to say hey, this is this is a niche that is not doesn't exist in the Twin Cities. Right now. Nobody's focusing on building healthy, sustainably focused energy efficient houses. And so that's what made me take the left turn out of it. And then about a year later, Ryan joined me and the two of us we said, you know we need to come up with a name that actually personifies what our focus is. And in that focus is on building sustainable green homes and the nine comes from it just so happens, we found a Wikipedia article, honestly, when we were trying to figure out how to name the company, on a consortium of architects, global architects that got together and said, How do we make the world a more sustainable place, just not necessarily on housing, but just in general, a more sustainable place to live. And so they came up with nine steps that they were going to implement and kind of all sign on, put their John Hancock on the, on the document. And so we read those nine steps. And even though they weren't necessarily specific to real estate, or construction, they all had a general theme. And so now those nine steps are kind of codified in our, in our being, if you will. And so just things

    Mark D. Williams 10:51

    that part of your I was looking at your website before the interview, just you know, looking at some of the work that you've done and kind of brushing up some details. Is that is that night? I didn't actually look but I didn't see is the nine tenants on there somewhere. It's

    11:01

    not right now. But we are about to launch a new website. So that's exciting. Yeah. Okay. Breaking news. No, we, we have a whole section on sustainability that we're finalizing right now. And those nine steps will be a big part of it. But it's also, you know, there's a lot of other stuff that goes into it, too. But those nine tenants essentially will be very, it's, it's what we live and breathe. And honestly, it's the staff that we have, it's why they've come to work for us. I couldn't believe that. Yeah, it's a big part of who they are as people. And it's helped us attract some of the brightest and most amazing people, they really, you know, we're we all like to say that we're nerds at heart. And, you know, I think it's, it's a testament to the staying power of a sustainably focused company to is these these people are passionate, and they want to, they want to do the right thing. And so it comes across in not only the designs that we produce with our partners, but also the construction techniques in the eye for detail. Right. And so that nerd in all of us, we we wear it with a badge of honor, I think and that's our employees definitely all call themselves nerds. And I mean,

    Mark D. Williams 12:14

    it's your superpower, right? I mean, yeah, differentiator, I think, maybe a lot. Well, we can talk now. I mean, other you guys were one of the first ones to really identify me back then lead led was kind of I remember just being, you know, it was more of a commercial thing. And you could do it residential, but it was very cost prohibitive at the time. You know, now we have green path, building certification and some other things like that. And it seems like there are some other builders that are targeting that. But by and large, it still seems at least for the clients that we're attracting, it was it was important early on that people would ask those questions. I felt like there's a lot of greenwashing. And that's just basically for those that are familiar with that term, essentially, you know, basically people say it's green, but it's really not any different. It's just, you know, a bit of a brush. But, you know, I've often heard it described as there's green back, greenies. And then there's, you know, you believe in green in the difference there is like, does it make financial sense to hence the green back to make these changes? Or am i Believing it from a sustainability and longevity standpoint? I feel like they're two totally different tracks that can sometimes align, and maybe speak a little bit to that.

    13:20

    Yeah, so I mean, green path at all our homes are green paths certified. That's kind of the not to downplay Green Path. That's a great certification, but we have a whole kind of ladder, if you will, of certifications. And that's kind of the starting point. And you know, there's ENERGY STAR for homes. You know, like you mentioned, LEED is really not as sought after, it's just more complex, and it's much more for commercial. But then we, we follow that up with the EPA, indoor air plus certification, would

    Mark D. Williams 13:50

    you say these are rungs on a ladder, when you try to get clients we've got, you know, your your dream path through the Minnesota Housing First, then you'll have ENERGY STAR, once you speak to that energy star,

    13:59

    most people have heard of energy star, but they think of like, Oh, my appliances or ENERGY STAR certified or my Windows might be well, this is a whole house certification. So it's a rigorous list of checklists that we have to meet in order to get that certification. And so each of these certifications kind of build on top of one another. So in order to get the next run up, for example, the EPA is indoor air plus certification, you you have to have achieved the Energy Star certification. So beyond that, you would typically go for the Zero Energy Ready, certification from the Department of Energy. And then from there, it can go a number of different ways. You know, there's things like Passivhaus certification, which came from Germany, and now there's a Passivhaus us those things start to get much more on the lead side and in in that's usually where a client starts to say, I'm not sure if I want to spend the money on that. And then there's other clients that say yes, I absolutely want that and to explain

    Mark D. Williams 14:58

    passive to those listening mind Standing of it is basically you consume the same amount of energy as you produce. Is that?

    15:04

    Yes, essentially in a nutshell, that's exactly right. Yeah, you're you're, you're it's a pretty complex and nerdy conversation if we want to go there, but yeah, it's in a nutshell. That's correct. Yeah. So, but anyway, the MO, I guess the way we look at it with our clients is we we build every home to a certain standard. And that standard is the EPA or EPA is indoor air plus, as well as the Zero Energy Ready for homes certification from the Department of Energy, those two certifications are quite difficult to get in, it's a lot of documentation about where our products are being sourced from the toxins that they should not have in them. And then on top of that, just the the energy efficiency piece, you know, triple pane windows, exterior insulation, different wall sections, so

    Mark D. Williams 15:54

    every house you have will have triple pane windows and external insulation, or to varying degrees didn't have this checklist in you and the client. I mean, there's a lot of things going on here, right? It's that yeah, it's the architecture. And we'll talk a little bit about unfold architecture in a minute. But you have them you have the interior designers or the interior designers on on your inner team on for interior designers on stairs, I would imagine that's pretty crucial in that sense, because they need to know which products to even recommend if they're not in alignment with your, you know, your protocols, and you're going to be pulled off pretty quick, I would imagine.

    16:23

    Yeah, absolutely. We have a gentleman named Paul at our office, too, that just kind of leads and make sure that we're, you know, checking all those boxes on all those certifications, because it's it is time consuming. But yeah, I mean, it's it's essentially, the way I would look at it from a customer standpoint is that we've already done all the hard work behind the scenes, we've we've educated ourselves, our team, we have the certifications in house, that we need in order to produce those those kinds of results. But the clients end up only paying just slightly more for the products that require exterior insulation or the triple pane windows. So generally, the number one question we get asked is, well, isn't it way more expensive to build this way? And in it? The answer is sort of it depends on the degree that you take it. But most clients will spend somewhere between one to maybe 3% more upfront, to build a sustainably focused house, but then the payback that they're getting in terms of the energy savings, and the comfort and the non toxic environment. I mean, all of that some of that some

    Mark D. Williams 17:32

    of that's hard to quantify your health. Yeah, we had somebody once that had a lot of respiratory issues, even before it COVID actually built his house during COVID as well. And so there was some even every meeting and where he was double n95s masking, basically saying like, hey, if I get anything, I'm dead. Yeah. And so we ended up you know, not to your level, obviously. But you know, we had the ultraviolet, which is killing 99% of the bacteria, plus the HEPA filters on all the H vac stuff just to basically get it to a place within reason for him. He's like, That's all the farther I want to take. And I feel comfortable with that. But what you know, for those that are builders in Minnesota, you're familiar with the her scores, which is basically the miles per gallon of your car, and you know, analogize to a house, what would be some common hers scores for your homes to put it in minute for those that understand what that is a relative term?

    18:20

    Yeah, I mean, so for those that don't know, a score of 100 is essentially, you know, a code built house, a score of zero is essentially someone that How am I I'm not saying

    Mark D. Williams 18:32

    the energy, the energy you consume is the same as the energy produced Thank you. It's not I mean, it's a net zero.

    18:37

    Yes. Yeah. So we've had a house that actually scored a negative eight what yeah, yes. Yep. House in St. Paul on Mississippi River bowl. Wow. We built it for this this wonderful family and the client was a big part of that certification process, right. They had to be all on board under that level. And he was very much a nerd at heart just like us right. And he was driving the process like I you know, we were looking at you values and windows like down to point 001. He had a whole spreadsheet full of guessing. Yeah,

    19:15

    I mean, we're pretty nerdy when it comes to that. But he had Yeah, his spreadsheet was next level he out no video. Yeah. Every brand you could possibly think of. Yeah, like that. You either have or haven't used to make you got it all the way down and, but then was looking at trade offs for me.

    Mark D. Williams 19:33

    I'd like to take a minute to thank our sponsors and then we'll be right back to the curious builder podcast. This episode is brought to you by Pella windows and doors. They've just been an amazing partner over my entire career. I've been building for 18 years and I've pretty much built every single home with Pella being installed in in my homes and whether you're doing a small remodel, whether you're doing commercial or high end architecture, they Have a product and a service that can fit any one of your needs. And on a personal level, Edie and Peter over and management have just been incredible mentors to me, both as a person and as a business owner. It's been a very special relationship and their team, their general manager, their sales department and their service. I mean, you call them they're there. They backup what they say. And they're the only window company that has a lifetime warranty on their windows. So when it's time to do a remodel or build a new home, Pella is the brand that we trust and we support, please reach out to them at Pella northland.com or on their Instagram at Pella Northam give them a follow, give them a like Be sure to follow what they're doing. And be sure to tell your Pella rep that you heard about him from the curious builder. This episode is brought to you by adaptive adaptive is a technology company that basically processes all your invoicing, it communicates with QuickBooks, it communicates with buildertrend, it basically takes everything that you have puts it into their system cost codes, if you've read it, you've sent it around the office, you can avoid those days of having 18 People stamp their approval on a piece of paper before a subcontractor gets paid, go give them a look. Give them a like, give them a follow adaptive dot build. All of our episodes and video are available at curious builder podcast.com. And now back to our guest

    Mark D. Williams 21:21

    out of curiosity, because you know we can learn from our clients as well. Did you end up taking anything from that spreadsheet that he had and kind of implementing it in house? Because it was so good?

    21:29

    I'm trying to remember I think some degree we maybe did yeah, at least for you know, you values change every couple of years, depending on what window they are. But yeah, we used some of them, I think yeah, going forward,

    Mark D. Williams 21:41

    if nothing else, just the concept was was cool. So that I mean, that's an extreme case, right now, it's incredible. If you were to build, you know, let's say you know, you have I have four steps written down, you know, Minnesota Green Path, you've got the ENERGY STAR, the EPA, the zero, let's just say you had a five 6000 square foot house, you know, without getting crazy, what would your expected hers value be? Yeah, I

    22:01

    think some of it depends on the amount of glass that you have in in their house, and you've seen our homes, they have a lot of glass, I mean, that is one of the things that does that counts against you, I guess a little bit on the her score. So for the homes that don't have much class, we can get those scores down into the teens or 20s. That's incredible. But in general, I would say the majority people come to us for two different reasons, the modern architecture that typically we most of our homes are modern, and people tend to love that but also the the sustainability piece, but if if you've seen a lot of modern homes, you know that they have large panes of glass, and so you're gonna probably end up in the 30s. But most likely the low 40s. But any any score under 50, in my opinion is is a difficult score to get. I mean, I remember when we were consistently in the early stages getting 46 to 50. And it was a struggle just to get that score with that amount of glass. And so now we've now we're using more advanced framing techniques, different installation techniques. So

    23:02

    I was just gonna say one thing too, on the house that we got the negative eight score, the reason you can get down there and get a lot of those points taken off is to do he did solar, and we did geothermal. So when you combine both of those, and you are, he's getting a check back from Xcel Energy every single month, right, you know, I mean, and he and house is super insulated and high you values and stuff, but

    23:24

    and he also didn't have a lot of glass either wasn't he didn't work to him.

    Mark D. Williams 23:27

    Yeah, I mean, I've seen that. And you and I would know that. But I mean, obviously, you know, if you want to get to net zero, it's a balance between the energy performance and let's say the architecture state Yes. Right. And so you see some of these homes and and not your homes necessarily, because either way more detailed and but you know, I mean, you could build a, you know, I think of like the, you know, the barns what, what I'm blanking on here, the metal, the CIP panel barns, I mean, sure, they're extremely. I'll pull that barn. Yeah, you're extremely efficient, actually. I mean, they're your SIP panel the whole way around. They're not that expensive. You throw a little heater in there. That thing is super efficient. Yep. But there's not a single window in the thing. Yeah. And so you know, you're 100% efficient on your wall paneling, your thermal bridging is all gone. Yeah, so that part's Great. Our homes I think are normally kind of in the 45 to 48 range. And we're not doing any external installation. And we're just starting to now part of it is I've offered it up as I'm really enthusiastic about it to try to get our clients but for me personally, our clients have not been willing to pay for some of the upgrades. And maybe it's you know, you and I know there's 1000s of line items in on a home and we can't prices, we still want to be competitive. But you also want to demonstrate what is a quality home and you no matter. It could be a $2 million home a $5 million or a $10 million home there's always limits and whatever in limit you're building to that client. They think that more should be included than it really is. You know, and so it's a part of it is optics us explain to the client and then I would imagine some of it is hey, this is just how we build I'm sure there's a bunch of things that we do that I consider normal that I don't even Think about that leads to performance. But one of the things that I would really like to do, I think for our homes I've roughly it's about a $20,000 upgrade to do like our six rigid foam exterior on everything. It's hard when I tell a client, hey, you know, your let's say your house is 1.7 or 2 million. And you know, will you pay for this $20,000 upgrade for for insulation, and they're in their mind, if they're not already passionate about it, they're thinking like, I could take that 20,000 and make a really killer bar in the basement. Why am I why am I just having a little more insulation, my jacket, or you'll hear some wisecracker say, I'll just turn up the heat, I would imagine that, you know, at least for our clientele, this is a complete stereotype. So I apologize, because there's definitely people out there that are more advanced, but my clientele lately has been a lot of them have been kind of, let's say, 55. and above, I think that I imagined that the younger generation is going to be a more educated, and they're also growing up in an age where every other day in the paper we're hearing about global warming. And so I would imagine that like anything, the younger generation would change it. But I'd ask you that question, because you've actually done this are your clients as an average age younger than let's say 55? Like where you're what I don't know, there's always going to be someone that's, you know, really into it that as an older age, but as an average, what are you seeing,

    26:15

    we're not necessarily seeing a difference in terms of age, its interests it maybe it's just pure luck right now. But it seems like across all ages, the clients that are doing these things are doing it for those those reasons, I would say the biggest heart the hardest sell for us is the exterior continuous insulation, just because right now, I think it's not common enough in the local market. So the the installers, and, and frankly, also the material cost, but the installers just aren't familiar enough with it. So they're charging more for learning on the job. Yeah, right. And so I think eventually, as more as the code updates, and more and more builders adopt this as just a standard practice, that number will start to come down. But if if a client's pushing back on that, we're pushing them to at least make sure they're going to a triple pane window. That's where they're going to get the biggest bang for their buck in terms of return on investment, or solar or geothermal. But then, I think the more interesting trend that we've seen really recently, and it's because of I think what's happening in Ukraine with Russia, and kind of the natural gas environment is we're seeing we have five clients right now, I'm sorry, for that are going all electric houses, so no natural gas, not even connecting to a natural gas source, and even connecting to them. So induction cooktops, all electric furnaces, electric water boilers, boilers, yep. And then there's supplementing that with other they're powering that with some type of, you know, alternative energy source, whether that's geothermal or solar, or both. And it's, it's pretty incredible. We, we weren't pushing that clients came to us asking for it. And so now it's, it's been great. But now we're actually adding that to our list of services, if you will,

    Mark D. Williams 28:09

    or looking on what I think is great as you guys have had, let's say, a decade, decade and a half of learning on the job, but I would imagine practicing on your own homes, developing your story. And now as this has kind of come full mainstream, you guys are coming to apex predators to handle is that an accurate statement to be like, hey, now, as you differentiate yourself between, say another builder you like, yeah, they might talk about it. But like, we've been doing this for 15 years. I imagine that's a huge differentiator.

    28:34

    Yeah, for sure. I mean, we even, it's funny, some of the people that come our clients have come to us, you know, they're, they might not be the biggest green nerd. But when they see all of the stuff put together, and they see the stuff like in Ukraine and stuff, they, they look at that and say okay, and all electric house, they might just be a complete numbers person and looking at it like, hey, if I can, if I put solar on this house, I could offset my entire heating, cooling, electrical load everything, right, because they are taking that completely off, and they don't have any natural gas in their house. So to me, I think it's just, it's a financial decision. Yeah, that's so much as it is. But the other thing I'll say about exterior continuous insulation is just the houses that we've built that we've done that the comfort level is off the charts better you can just feel it if you feel

    Mark D. Williams 29:25

    like you just are six or beyond that, or even once you get to an R six, you can feel that

    29:29

    we're typically doing an AR 10 or 10. Yep, but we're using like a rock wall insulation, like a love rock wall. Yep. Outside because that actually adds you know, there's some there's other benefits, you know, sound insulation. And so for example, we built a three unit row home right over here and Linden Hills that had exterior continuous insulation with Rockwell on the outside and it's right in the airport. You know, flight path.

    Mark D. Williams 29:55

    I lived two blocks away from my kids, my kids, you know, think it's normal for A you know, a giant airplane fly over your head every

    30:02

    five minutes where you can read the serial number. I

    Mark D. Williams 30:04

    don't even actually notice it anymore. Whenever I have visitors come over, they're constantly like looking up and like at this point, I don't even know they're there. Yeah, kind of just a giant bird.

    30:11

    Right. But it helps with that sound insulation you can't hear cars going by. And then on top of it, there's some you know, if there ever was tragically like a fire that product is less is more fire retardant than

    Mark D. Williams 30:25

    rock was an incredible product. If you for those listening, if you know anything about rock, well check them out their their stuff is just really cool. So are you so you're What are you. So getting a little nerdy here. So you are what ply wedding next year in your house are using like a zip system, or, and then you're doing your weather walk me through your wedding through your envelopes. Because obviously, if you get into an AR 10, that's a lot of labor. And obviously you're training these guys, over time, it'll get better. Some of the other products, of course, as you would know, whether it's OSI or zip, these are just named brands, if you're not familiar with what we're talking about, where essentially the insulation is rigid, and it's inside the framing member. So the you know, the framers can just obviously put it up and away you go, walk us through your envelope building envelope, because I think that's really important to the building science for those listening.

    31:10

    Yeah, the research that we've done and put into practices that we've we have done a few projects in the past with those products that you mentioned, zip in particular, but we've kind of steered away away from that. And so our interior wall cavities are either, you know, like an eco bat. So it's not a spray foam anymore. You know, back in the day, we were doing spray foam insulation. And you know, that was the number one way to get a house super tight. And now we're moving away from that just from the health for the health reasons solely.

    Mark D. Williams 31:45

    And so just to be clear, an eco bat is that replacing fiberglass so

    31:49

    bad? Yeah. It's essentially a more healthier version of a fiberglass insulation, so or a dense pack cellulose. That could be the alternative to that. It just depends on the actual client and the in the circumstances or even Rockwell Yeah, or even Rockwell

    Mark D. Williams 32:06

    Rockwell is nice. I mean, it's not going back to sound again, we've done we do a lot for sound with Rockwell on the inside. I mean, that just kills.

    32:12

    Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then we have the plywood sheathing and then we have a we have a special you know, instead of most people are using Tyvek we're using a product from I believe it's Germany isn't Ryan, I'm facing that name. Yeah, Sega Sega.

    Mark D. Williams 32:26

    Yeah, big is amazing. I've seen it's not cheap. Yeah. What is it about that? I've seen it on the East Coast. There's another builder, Nick Schiffer within us builders. He's he uses that on all his homes. What's the advantage of the Sega why that product specifically?

    32:41

    Well, a lot of it is just it's a quality conversation. But it's also a lot of this is to think the bigger point is to get the dewpoint outside of the building. Right. So the AR 10

    Mark D. Williams 32:51

    gets you there. I thought it'd be an AR 15.

    32:54

    The the AR 10 I believe I think it's an AR 10? I don't know. You know, we should have had Paul on this podcast. Yeah, this he'd be I didn't realize

    Mark D. Williams 33:04

    I was gonna get really interested in this process. So I might

    33:08

    not be getting this 100% accurate. So I should make that disclaimer. But yeah, we'll talk to Paul. And anyway, so we have the Sega then we have our rock wall and then there's a rain screen. Of course before the siding type goes the

    Mark D. Williams 33:22

    rock wall can't act as the rain screen is it's porous. I mean, that's one of the big advantages is that water can go through it. So you're adding the rain screen on outside of the typical

    33:29

    part of the reason we're adding an additional layer of rain screen is just the rock walls of flexible product, right? Yeah, so trying to attach let's say a James Hardy product or anything else to it, you

    Mark D. Williams 33:40

    have to strip it somehow. Whatever. Exactly. So

    33:42

    in a way, we're just setting furring strips, but it's acting as a secondary rainscreen beyond the the I could be I could be forgetting the rain screen on top of the Sega

    33:55

    No, it's yeah, it's on top of the Sun the exterior of

    33:59

    the of the UCI without looking at a wall section spacing it out right now, but it's but the point is, is getting the getting the dewpoint so that it's not getting into the wall, right? Oh, I

    Mark D. Williams 34:10

    know. I know the science behind it is really incredible.

    34:12

    One of the things who was Sega it? I mean, Paul sold me on this it for I mean, we've always been looking for something other than Tyvek and we'd use some different products and Tyvek I'm not ripping Tyvek still a good product, but I mean how many times have you drove by house after a storm and that stuff is flapping around in the wind and they just come back and you know how well does it get reapplied with this stuff? I mean, it's this isn't

    Mark D. Williams 34:35

    a stick as EPM or what's the it's a petroleum bait.

    34:39

    Literally it literally is like adhered to the Indian

    Mark D. Williams 34:43

    put that onto your ciders or or frame framers

    34:45

    do. Yeah. Yeah. So that you have to have the right partners. You have to train them on all these products too. And, you know, and then we're, we're, you know, checking it as it's being built, of course, just to make sure that there's

    34:57

    but once you get them to do that, and they learn how to do the full wall section, including the exterior continues ECI. Once we get, you know, all of a sudden, they're like, Okay, now we know how to do this. The next time their price is lower, do you know just Oh, right? No,

    Mark D. Williams 35:11

    no, I know how to learn how to do. Now the first one through the glass ceiling, I get it. So I just maybe don't know this, but as just a total guess, let's say, let's say one of my homes, let's say it's 47 or 45. On her her score, let's say I go to not an AR 10. Let's say go to an AR six. Any idea what that would drop? Now? I know, you don't know, my this is a total shot, Derek. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah,

    35:34

    I think you'd have to It's so depending on the amount of glazing that's on it and so many

    Mark D. Williams 35:39

    other test your models? I mean, are you able to test the model before you actually build it in like 3d modeling or through your architecture firm?

    35:45

    Yeah, we were starting to partner, we have worked with the Center for Energy and Environment to kind of pre design the, the load calx for all the mechanical systems and everything to make sure that they're going to perform, and then they're coming out, I think it's typically four times during construction to verify that everything's getting sealed up, right. They're doing blower door tests, that's all part of your accreditation on the checklist and all that Centerpoint know, the Center for Energy and Environmental CCE, that's a local company here that they're I believe they're a nonprofit, actually. But they, they can do work for a homeowner to you know, if you want to get an energy audit on your house, they'll come out and do that. But anyway, you know, we're looking to get that air exchanges per hour, the amount the tightness of the house way down. You know, I think, you know, code in Minnesota is three air changes per hour, I believe. And we're typically getting under one, you know, somewhere between three and like

    Mark D. Williams 36:45

    1516. Yeah, like, that just measures for those listening, that just measures the tightness of how leaky your house is usually right? Yeah, you're always going to have some leak. I mean, if a window if anything operates and moves, it's going to have some air pastor that

    36:57

    fair to say I had an install. It was in a class once an instructor basically used his hands to say this is the size of the whole that's typically in in a code built house, you know, house that's, you know, with an ACH under one is something like this this cage that you're having in a house, you know, so

    37:17

    when you add all those holes together, I mean, it is weird to think like, oh, on a normal code, but it helps you this. It's like bigger than draft, you said, it's just,

    Mark D. Williams 37:26

    if you're not watching this, if you're not watching this on Spotify or YouTube, basically, it's a softball for the small aperture, or it's like the size of one of those giant inflatable blue medicine balls that you actually get right. Yep. Okay. Interesting. What? So you guys won an award for looking at your website, the Minnesota greenPath Leadership Award? Talk to me a little bit about some of the publications, some of the press some of the basically some of the leadership roles that you've taken that I assume, maybe you set out to do this, but I'm guessing you came into those leadership roles as you're pursuing your knowledge. Is that accurate?

    38:02

    Yeah, you know, a lot of this is we're learning everyday to write. And so we do not, we don't claim to know the best way to do something. So we adjust. And so I think some of the accolades or awards that we're getting is a result of work that maybe we did five years ago. And now some of the work that we're doing now is getting different in different categories. For example, that negative eight house it won a national award for, from the Department of Energy for how energy efficient it was. And so that that was a really nice recognition for any kind of nerd out there.

    Mark D. Williams 38:37

    And I think it's cool that that's, you know, we have in Minnesota, obviously, for those not listening, it gets cold here, you know, negative 20, negative 30. You know, that's that one week in January, and then our humidity in the summers, you know, crazy, that 90% humidity at 90 degrees is real fun. And so we have really big temperature swings bigger than I would argue than most of the rest of the country. Yeah. And so, you know, I think it's easy for a lot of builders to say, I know, I've said it is like, oh, netzero we can't achieve that. Or it's not worth it. It's idea that I love the idea that you went negative eight. That's that is that's, that's cool, because now you're like, No, not only have we done that we've actually gotten eight points better than that. And, you know, someone might want to fact check that report, because I don't know that sounds pretty good to be true.

    39:21

    In fact, that homeowner is continuing to supply us with data that we call that and the Center for Energy and Environment is has been a nice partner on that project, because we basically been able to over time, they've been in the house now what three or four years, but pre COVID, about four years. And we're seeing just how much they're they're they're saving on their you know, the money savings that they're writing as well. So

    Mark D. Williams 39:47

    I love the fact that gives you for marketing data as well. Yeah, to like explain this to other clients so that obviously they can do this as well. And I imagine this gentleman probably is so passionate about it. He can't wait to tell you his latest report.

    39:58

    Oh, yeah. Yeah, we've helped Seems like look how much I saved. But he's also sending us like the hard data. Just using the software that runs solar and the geothermal he can show us like kilowatt hours kilowatt hours, putting back onto the grid, and he's like, I'm still, I don't know, if he's like, really, trying to save a bunch of electricity probably isn't enough, you still getting a check back every month? That's what amazes me. I'm like,

    Mark D. Williams 40:22

    so let's talk a little bit about electric why, you know, you hear about that a lot. But to educate people, why is electric more sustainable? I mean, obviously, we have a lot of, you know, electric cars versus gas. And, you know, you hear about, you know, LP gas versus natural gas, just give us high levels of education of why because electric still has to be made. I know, there's, you know, obviously coal can make electric and coal isn't good for the environment. I mean, how do we know that when we're going down the road of electricity, that how they're generating electricity is also sustainable?

    40:52

    Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. And these are, those are questions that, honestly are probably best answered by our utilities and our policymakers. But the way we look at it is, I think, to back up even further, Paul uses this phrase, and I'm going to forget what it is. But it's essentially, to build a sustainable house, it's first about using less materials less energy to produce the house in the first place. Right. And so a lot of it is about bringing products from within 100 mile radius or, you know, not using a tremendous amount of or not having, excuse me, a lot of waste on the jobsite, you know, whether that's with SIP panels, or, you know, selective cutting or ordering products, right the first time just being very diligent about that. But then when it comes to the electric part of it, you know, the debate, I think is, well, you're still using, you know, potentially a coal fired plant from your local utility to supply that electricity. Well, I think we all know that that grid is slowly being improved. And over time, the hope is, is that if we're on an all electric house that potentially could be powered by solar, either on that house or in a neighborhood solar farm, or from the utility that's potentially participating in some type of solar farm that's maybe in western Minnesota. But yeah, is there? Is there an environmental impact of producing the products in in an electric home? Of course there is, but is it any more any less? I mean, that's where I think my level of knowledge starts to peter out, but I think, for most of our clients, they're looking at it like the long they're looking long term, right? They're looking for the next 100 years. For my kids and grandkids, what is making the most sense, it's probably to move away from natural gas, or LP

    Mark D. Williams 42:52

    one, I saw an interesting stat, and I should have looked it up beforehand, I saw it a couple of months ago is in a magazine. And I know it informed me to encourage clients for future stuff to do induction, we're building a little cabin, and we can't do gas anyway. So we'll do electric for sure there. But the fact that I forget what it was, was like you're 60% more likely to develop either asthma or some sort of respiratory breathing issue with gas appliances in the house, I was blown away at that, because now it's less about money. And it's less about it as it is about your health. And I think for sure, if you talk about your children, and you know, we're fortunate at this point, I don't think any of our kids have have respiratory issues, but you know, we have gas appliances, and they look pretty, and I sell a lot of them. And you know, that's what we're, you know, what people say that they want, but anyway, can you speak a little bit to that? Because I think you guys have probably discovered more about that.

    43:44

    Yeah, I mean, part of the the actual natural gas that you're putting into the house, some of it is not actually getting burned, right. And the part that's not getting burned is there's a component of it is benzene, which is a known carcinogen, right? That's benzene causes cancer and other horrible disease because

    Mark D. Williams 44:01

    if your hood fan is on it's not sucking that out,

    44:03

    well it can to some degree, yes. But is there leakage around the actual Yeah, or the pilot light in your water heater for example, your furnace is going to have some leakage to it. And even just right from the meter itself, there's going to be some some leakage potentially and so that that benzene is going to build up over time in your home if you're not adequately ventilated. But then when you're asked why

    Mark D. Williams 44:28

    is that well that whether it got rid of the power vent or not the power vacuum that has a fan on it, but like the old was the atmospheric fence of the old water heaters anyone that lives on old house you had like this little metal I mean, I think I do more remodeling than you so yeah, because you guys do mostly new homes right? Yeah. So like a lot of the old homes you know, you have that little metal got you know stainless steel hood over it and like you can see the flame just kind of flickering on air. I think they call it atmospheric as you can keep it if you have it, but if you replace it, it has to be power vented, which is you know, a PVC pipe that's connected properly to avoid that exact issue for back drafting. And for you know, Yep,

    45:00

    yeah. Yeah, but then see, I'm trying to think where I was going with that. But you know, in general, I think the, I guess I was just gonna comment more on the health side of things, so I know what I was gonna say. So when you're burning natural gas, now you're producing besides that benzene that's going to house you're now you're producing carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, a bunch of other VOCs, volatile organic compounds, all of that, and then fine particulate matter that's floating around in your house. Is some of it getting up out of the event? Yes. But are you running your event all the time? I sometimes sit in my in laws house, they have natural gas. Well, you have natural gas and my current house that I'm living in, and I know my fan is not sucking all of it out. It's a weak fan, you know, so you got to have a powerful fan that's doing it or you even just have to have it on a lot of people forget to turn it on most of

    Mark D. Williams 45:54

    the time. So we have the opposite problem. My wife I swear every time I come in the house, every fan in the room is I always think about like we have a 9019 house here in Minneapolis. Like, you know, usually from I do it for moisture, right? You know, you leave your shower fans on I'll leave early in the morning, come home, I mean that fans might have been running for like 10 hours. I'm like, Honey, what are you doing? You know, what

    46:11

    are we saving? Yeah,

    Mark D. Williams 46:13

    no, doesn't matter. I think so sometimes I think like an old house, I shut off the fans, I go around the house and shut them off. This is moisture, not obviously gas. And I'm in. And anyway. Yeah, personal thing. I hate moisture. So I do like to get it out. But it doesn't need to run for eight hours. Let's I have a few other things I want to talk to you about regarding so we talked a little bit about electric talk to us a little bit about solar in geo. And mainly, I'll just bring this up for kind of a counterpoint I was considering was going to work with a client that had owned a solar company at one point. And he actually ended up selling the solar point, he has a Tesla and he's all in on it. But he's like his point was is that the solar technology hasn't changed that much in the last however many decades, according to him. And he had just said that, you know, in our climate, you know, people don't factor in, you know, dust, snow, speak to a solar panels, efficiencies, longevity, and what is how effective are solar panels in Minnesota's climate?

    47:09

    You know, it's funny, I've heard kind of the opposite of that. So I don't know how I'm not Yeah, I've never owned a solar company. So the guy probably knows what he's talking about to some degree. But I've heard that there's been kind of leaps and bounds jumps in terms of the efficiencies of solar panels, the longevity of those panels. But also, depending on the type of panel that you're you're purchasing. In the past, it used to be that, you know, if any part of the, you know, let's say two by four panel was covered in shade or dust, the whole panel was not working. And so they fixed my understanding is that they fixed that problem in most of the manufacturing processes now, so that if you're, if you're covered with snow or dust or shade on a particular panel, you still are getting the rest of the the power from the rest of the panel.

    Mark D. Williams 48:03

    I mean, nobody is anyone actually in when you say dust. I mean, obviously if it rains, I assume it will get cleaned. But does anyone actually power washing or actually cleaning their solar panels up on the roof that

    48:11

    I don't think we get enough rain here where it's, it doesn't sound right. I mean, you know, that is it's the panels are designed, they're black in there. They're, you know, they've got it, they've got a clear, smooth surface. So most of the snow goes off of it unless you don't have it set at the proper angle. But right. Like, I know the house, we got a negative eight, and those were on a more pitched roof. And there's no waste no stain on those. Even maybe some Dustin stuff in the winter. But yeah, I think they've solved that problem. Okay, that's a good question. It's kind of beyond my knowledge base. But from what we can just only report on what our clients are experiencing. And they're they're seeing.

    48:52

    But I think a lot of what everybody always thinks as well, I have to have a ton of solar panels, right. But if you build the house super energy efficient in the first place, and you're using less electricity, then you don't actually need as many panels to run. And so there's this, there's this kind of misnomer in the public that well, I'm going to need all these panels in this can be extremely cost prohibitive to do solar. Well, if you start with a better wall section and a better window. You're less to heat or more efficient to heat. Yep. Yeah, good. Yeah. Interesting. Well, early on, I

    Mark D. Williams 49:24

    mean, I assume this is where design reinforces I mean, that I call it the transitional modern style that you have or modern however you want to, you know, you love a lot of the least angled ropes. What angle with those ropes be I mean, people can't see what I'm motioning to, but you've got kind of this set for 12 612. Like what kind of angle is that? Like a lot of your homes have kind of that long shed roof angle on it?

    49:44

    Yeah, they vary anywhere from flat completely flat to you know, needed a 212 Yeah, it was recently. Anything I would say there's a lot of 212 312 for 12 low pitched roofs, and as long as they're facing the right direction And then they can still achieve solar, your solar

    Mark D. Williams 50:03

    panels are going on top of that stuff anyway. So I mean, they can, they can adjust. Even if you had a low pitch roof, you could change the angle absolutely handled to meet the sun's angle.

    50:12

    Yeah, on a flat roof, for example, you're gonna have a parapet wall that's sticking up at least a couple of feet, and then the panels are going to be angled towards the sun on a rack of some kind. And so just because it's flat doesn't mean you can't, I mean, usually flat roofs are actually really great for solar. So

    Mark D. Williams 50:28

    is because you have an even deck to put everything on and then kind of move it around to catch whatever angle you want. What I mean, do you guys do work with a local solar company? I mean, who who is there a number of around? Are they by local? Where are these panels made? Here? A lot of them, hey, they're being made in California, they're being made in China? Or where are these panels coming from?

    50:46

    I don't know specifically. So I'm not the right person. I think Paul would know that.

    Mark D. Williams 50:51

    I didn't realize I was gonna ask this curious builders living up to his namesake. I'm

    50:55

    very curious about the solar. All energy solar has been our partner for a while on most of our solar projects. But I mean, there's there's other solar companies we've worked with that are that are great as well. So, but they're,

    Mark D. Williams 51:08

    yeah, have them on? Oh, yeah. Yep. They would love him. That'd be cool. We'll have them on. And Paul. Yeah. I'll just sit, ask the questions and let the volleyball back and forth. Also

    51:17

    mechanical engineer by trade, by the way, they just agree. So he can get pretty technical. All right.

    Mark D. Williams 51:23

    All right. Where does geothermal fit into all of this? Because you've got I mean, obviously, I know what geothermal is, you're basically taking the average temperature of the Earth's heat and you know, you're warming up the difference. But how are you? You know, just for those that don't understand it, you've got your vertical tubes, you've got your horizontal tubes. Are you often doing kind of belt suspenders solar and geo together? How do you when you're presenting all this to a client? How are you presenting these different elections? Is it from a cost standpoint? Or is it for a performance standpoint? How are you educating your client?

    51:55

    That's a good question. I mean, so much of it depends on the specific site, you know, in in the angles of the sun and how much space we might have for those vertical or horizontal wells. So we have a whole sustainability focused meeting where all we talk about is mechanical systems, and solar and geo and how they all Interplay together. And it's a it's a top, it's a conversation around comfort, energy efficiency, the healthiness of the home. And so we're looking at it holistically, I guess, is the best way to answer your question. And so some people will choose just to do geothermal day one, and they'll just wire for solar and then maybe add that later. But at least they have that option. So that's typically if someone's going to cut costs. Unfortunately, usually solar gets the X at the end, but they put the G O N because they know that that's, you know, you

    Mark D. Williams 52:45

    you got to drill in it's gonna make a material get messy. Yeah, you can add it on later. That makes sense.

    52:50

    I think the thing to take it to like for Gio, it's, again, I keep coming back with us, we got negative eight. I mean, that was a St. Paul lot on the river. I mean, people think like, oh, I need this huge acreage to have God you don't I mean, like, they can drill the wells straight down. I mean, this was on almost a River Bluff. I mean, they were far enough out of the river so that we weren't going into the water. But I mean, to me, it's like, you could put that on. Any lots. You know, I think people forget that, too. You know, I think that's a good thing to remember.

    Mark D. Williams 53:17

    I think if they think especially a horizontal loop system, right, exactly. You know, or like you think of a farm field. I mean, I personally if i No matter where I live, I would want a vertical system just because then I don't have to worry about you know, this thing being exposed. of field. You know, the first time I mentioned right when we started the first time I ever went through I think was the one you had off of Zenith or Xerxes. You've done a few out there. It was the one the roller derby

    53:40

    Oh, yeah. 50th 50th didn't beard.

    Mark D. Williams 53:44

    Yeah. Well, I remember you I had the roller derby posters or something in the basement. Yeah, great clients, great clients. So anyway, I was like, I remember that. That was how many years ago at that event.

    53:53

    That's probably one on thinks maybe he was a part owner in the Minnesota robot group. Okay, so he was That was That was rough. He was a referee for him. Okay, yeah.

    Mark D. Williams 54:04

    Again, you're listening to the curious builder podcast. This episode is brought to you by the scout guide, Minneapolis. The Scout Guide is a curated guide of Twin Cities, how to spots companies, people, venues, and events focusing on all things local and small business. When you pick up their magazine, it just feels different. You open up the ads and they're not just you know, the team in front of the building with a you know your normal photo as vibrant, it's unique that might even be set in a completely unusual setting something that catches your eye and not only tells the story in a picture, but lets you know that that's a company that you want to go visit. Look for something different this year, pick up the scout guide, you won't be disappointed. And if you're looking for advertising and highly recommend it, they have an incredible social push. One thing that I was really interested in is that they will go to your events they will go to your place of business. They will ask you questions Is that they then post on their feeds and they have a quite a following find them on social media platforms at the scout guide, Minneapolis. All of our episodes and video are available at curious builder podcast.com. And now back to our guest

    Mark D. Williams 55:20

    where I was going with this as a roof garden. So walk me through roof garden. I mean, it's obvious. So if you've got a flat roof, or they trays, I mean, obviously people see the green but obviously me having built houses like where does the water go? You know, the loading? You know, does somebody mow it? How do you how do you manage this? Like? How does someone go about doing a roof garden in a way that makes sense?

    55:40

    Yeah, that that particular house and most of those green roofs we've done have been from a product called Live roof. Our local retailer Bachman. So they sell the trays right trays. Yeah. And so they're just interlocking trays, you pull out the sides of the trees in the soil grows together. But then there's still a plastic guard on the bottom to help protect the rubber membrane road. But we put an extra slip sheet down of rubber before we install that. And so you have two layers of rubber. Yeah, really? Are

    Mark D. Williams 56:08

    they both EDPM? Or yeah, the

    56:09

    first layer is the actual roof protect, you know, the part that's protecting the house. And then the second part is just a loose layer

    56:16

    that's layer of slip sheet by slip that doesn't like flying around. But

    56:19

    yeah, but yeah,

    56:20

    this product is just, it's see them. It's the name of the the plan,

    56:25

    the drought tolerant plant, it grows naturally here in Minnesota, it's beautiful. It's green, red, and some a little bit, it's the oranges in there sometimes. And then you know, you have to trim it about once, maybe twice a summer. So we have to tell clients that be prepared to, you know, get your trimmers out or a weed whip or something just to bring the height back down and keep it manageable. So it doesn't turn into a weed garden.

    Mark D. Williams 56:50

    Do you have to irrigate it too with like misters and stuff?

    56:53

    It just depends on the type of summer we're having like last summer, we had a lot of rain, and you should it's considered a drought tolerant plant. So as long as I think we get like, it's like one two inch a month, one inch a month is when it's survived just fine. And it's only getting one answer. Yeah,

    57:08

    yeah. And you know, in our climate, we have to be getting one inch, right, at least you would think, yeah, but the seat the seat when to when to trim that you don't, you can just let the clippings fall because it regrowth. So it's like they just,

    Mark D. Williams 57:21

    it's you have to so that knob, for those listening to ballast essentially be like rocks or something like that you have to engineer the weight of the trusses to handle just, I mean, I think one pod won't be that much. But imagine entire roof deck would actually probably be a significant amount of weight, right? Could you just add a live roof on top of one that's already there without engineering or not?

    57:42

    You'd have to check with the structural engineer. But generally, we're telling our structural engineer ahead of time, like, Hey, make sure you understand. It's written right on the plans like hey, there's a green roof here. And I believe it's five pounds per square foot or as a 25 pounds per square foot.

    Mark D. Williams 57:59

    I can also as Paul, Where's Paul?

    58:01

    No. So actually, I've had to look into this. But I first started doing live roof has, they have multiple different models, if you will, it's almost like they have they have one that is like it's like a retrofit. So it's made for, you know, some roof trusses that weren't ever designed for it. But then they have we are using usually using the next step up from that. But then you can get I think thicker, two or three likes a really thick one. You don't have to grow see them? I mean, that's where people were like, I want a garden. You know, I'm gonna grow tomatoes. I'm gonna grow sunflowers. You know, you can get ones that are really thick. But again, yeah, then you're, you're starting to get some more beefier roof trusses. And right, I mean, holding a tank up there, right play with all the water, you know, and stuff when it gets up there. So Right.

    Mark D. Williams 58:45

    Well, I think we tackled sustainable. Well, I'm really interested in hopefully those listening are as well. I want to talk a little bit I think this is Ryan's department a little bit development, so the condo complex that you guys are doing. I don't know if you guys do any commercial, but I know you you're doing some Shakopee developments and some Prior Lake developments. talks a little bit about your business structure, just from a building point of view. You know, I think when I was first aware of you, you guys were doing mostly, you know, tear downs, you know, pre sold for clients. Now, it seems like you're doing you're doing quite a few models now.

    59:16

    Yep. You know, I think we were always, you know, a lot. We started out doing, you know, before anybody knew who we were right, we had to get your name out there, right. And we did more spec homes back there and kind of built up that fan base, if you will, right. And, you know, there was a period there where we're doing almost 100% Everything was custom. We weren't really doing many specs, maybe one model here or there. But we still are doing a ton of that. And that is definitely our core focus of the business. But we've expanded now just I've nerded out a lot on like the Minneapolis 2040 plan, right? I mean, there's like it or not, it's coming right and it's here. And I think the cool part about it is it. It's a way to add density and I think we can do Add density in a cool way, where people would have ever thought of like, Oh, they're just gonna be building this massive apartment building next to me. And it's like, no, you can actually do something like these three unit row homes. So we built overlooking Linden Hills Park, they were, you know, I think at first the neighborhood was apprehensive. But once we saw it, we actually had it on two tours, had an artisan home tour, the luxury home tour. And we had a ton of people through there that were just like, boy, this is really cool. It fits the neighborhood. But yet it the way I always look as it took one home and turn it into home for three different families.

    Mark D. Williams 1:00:32

    Right, which is there's a wide lot I remember, I used to play tennis, they're all the exact so I remember looking at that one was for sale. Yep. Yeah, interesting.

    1:00:41

    Sustainability factor to that too, right. I mean, we're, we're, we're taking people that potentially would have had to move to a suburb, you know, and drive farther to work that are now moving much closer into the city and to walkable neighborhoods. And so I think that's been our goal is, how do we do these in? How do we take an infill lot and make it?

    Mark D. Williams 1:01:00

    How, so your first townhome or row homes as you What did you kind of learn through that process?

    1:01:06

    You know, I think it was funny because the Minneapolis 2040 plan literally went into effect on January 1 of that year, we were the second person in the because we submitted our plans, we knew it was coming. We submitted our plans, I think on January 3 in our life and people and the whole city. So all the city staff was pretty much learning along with us because they had never done this, you know, they were just like, well, this is it should have gone through the planning commission. And now it's does even have to, for up to a three unit building. Right. So they. So I think there was a big learning curve there. Just on the city's part. We kind of knew what we I mean, perfect example is we're just like, boy, we didn't really even learn. We're like, oh, we need to put this is a three unit. It's more than a two unit building. It's three and a building. We need to put a sprinkler system in this is required, right? So anything more than three units, you're doing it. So I think that was one learning lesson. Right there.

    Mark D. Williams 1:01:59

    And this was all a model, right? This is not praise? Yep. Yep. It

    1:02:03

    was all about it. Well, actually shouldn't say we had one that was built one

    1:02:07

    unit for our parents. Yes. They were getting up there in age and we wanted to close to the office so they could walk us ability. Yes. Yeah. So it was it was an accessibility focus building, too, right? We'll handle Handicap Wheelchair accessibility was a big part of that project. Not only the sustainable, so each unit came with its own private elevator or an option to add an elevator. And that honestly, is what sold all three, the other two units, we roughed in for an elevator and

    Mark D. Williams 1:02:33

    we lost we do that a lot. For even our younger clients. We had a house, I wanted to go see that home because we had a home and listen to at the same time as you did. But I was working my tour home setting, I couldn't sneak away to yours. And but we often will stack the closets and i Doesn't that couple I built for was very young, you know, and probably in their late 30s. And I just simply said, you know, it's good insurance policy, because we work with a lot of people in their 50s and 60s. And you know, sometimes especially Minneapolis, you can't do main floor masters, because the you know, the property is just not big enough, if you want, you know, some of the things on your main level that's fighting for the space, but ultimately with an elevator. I mean, from my experience, it's 40 to 50,000 It's not terrible. You know, it's a lot cheaper than moving rebuilding another house. So 20 years down the road.

    1:03:11

    Yeah, yeah, just so happened, our mom broke her foot and her dad had to have surgery within weeks of moving away. And so they would have not been there last house, they would have, we would have had to move them all to their dining room on the main floor. Right. So

    1:03:25

    I think the other thing too, is just, I've just taught myself all this and really dove in and figured out just the codes because it's not going anywhere. And now, I don't know if you've saw or not. But St. Paul is literally following in Minneapolis shoes very, very fast. I mean, they're gonna soon be able to allow to the same thing two to three units on any lot in the whole city. They're gonna get rid of single family zoning, and there's going to be spots to still build a single family home. Yep, yep, you can, you could totally, I mean, we could always do that. But they're encouraging more density. And there will be you can build up to six units by right in some of these areas, like closer to like Macalester College and some of the college, you know, around the bus routes and stuff. And it's, I mean, so that stuff is coming really fast. And I think it's happening nationwide. I

    1:04:10

    mean, really, Minneapolis was a pioneer. And now a lot of cities have kind of whoa, okay, so it's working.

    1:04:18

    Even Richfield that I think Richfield now is allowing duplexes, I think on every single lot. So to me, you know, it's a way

    Mark D. Williams 1:04:25

    how do they handle parking, because parking in Minneapolis is

    1:04:29

    so Minneapolis literally did away with all their parking, like, unless you're doing parking requirements, so you don't, I can go and build a 10 unit building and I wouldn't literally other than to have a drop on drop off spot. I would not have to have any parking.

    Mark D. Williams 1:04:48

    They just want they want density by any means necessary any means necessary.

    1:04:52

    Behind and if you think about it, like if you go to like a city like Washington DC, or obviously New York or some of these other ones, I mean even In a lot of spots in Uptown Minneapolis, those older buildings were built with no parking, right? I mean, they don't have their square, you know, street parking, that's just the way it is. And, you know, I think it's also this whole thing of, do you really need to drive your car? Or do you need? Would it be better for you to bike somewhere or to take public transit, and I totally get it. We're, Minnesota is a state where everybody wants a car and needs a car because of sometimes the weather and stuff but but I think the more dense our cities become, the more we won't need all those things. And we'll have more of those options.

    Mark D. Williams 1:05:32

    I like the fact you know, Linden Hills obviously will celebrate because it's it's charming community. I'm biased, because I've lived there for 15 years, I don't anymore, but I do like to go back there to special Joes and whatnot. But the point is walking in a community, I really compliment city planners, they don't have an easy job. Because I hear from developers, they hear it from me as a builder. But as a person who also lives in the communities I do like an area that is who doesn't want to you know, everyone wants walk to the coffee shop, walk to you know, whatever. And a little restaurants, I mean, building that community is really important to our community. So I hope they continue to do that. Well, there's a lot more questions I wanted to ask. But I'm running out of time. So I'm gonna give you the rapid fire. What Ryan wants you to take this one, how do you how do you self educate? I mean, are you a podcast listener?

    1:06:17

    I'm a big podcast listener. I, you know, I think I only started probably really listen to podcasts about two years ago. And now every day on the way into our office way back or anywhere I'm going I'm pretty much I feel bad. I'm like, Can I really listen to some music today? But other than that, I'm listening to podcasts putting yours. Yeah, I mean, I just, I have like my 15 that I've

    Mark D. Williams 1:06:38

    Oh, wow, that's a lie. I can only handle Emma like on three or four. I'll do I usually get through all my podcasts that are weekly. So I usually get through all of them by Tuesday. Okay, and then I'll do audiobooks the rest of the time, because

    1:06:49

    I do. I mean, most of mine are all about development, honestly, doing a lot of this multifamily investments, things like that. So, but yeah, I have a fun one here in there. But that's the way I do it. And I think a lot of it's just educating myself with all of the new codes and stuff that are coming in. I honestly nerd out with on that. I don't know why, but I do.

    Mark D. Williams 1:07:13

    Yeah, I'm good for you. Yeah. Favorite book, Chad. Favorite book could be anything. It doesn't have to be the favorite. But

    1:07:21

    right now I'm reading Tools of Titans by Tim Ferriss. I wouldn't say it's my favorite book. It's an interesting book. It's more of a it's more of like a written podcast. It's like a series of interviews of what I'm sorry, what was called Tools of Titans.

    Mark D. Williams 1:07:36

    At last,

    1:07:37

    he wrote The Four Hour Workweek The Four Hour Chef the four hour or four hour everyday. Yeah. I don't know if I could name a favorite. was a big Stephen King fan for a long time. I like that kind of stuff. Yeah.

    Mark D. Williams 1:07:52

    Let's go to off. Yeah. Let your brain recharge a little bit. Yeah. If you Chad or I sorry, Ryan, if you could go back to the very beginning. What advice would you give yourself?

    1:08:03

    Oh, my gosh, why didn't I start sooner? You know, like, literally, I mean, even just,

    1:08:09

    why didn't I buy more land back buy more?

    1:08:12

    I wish going back when we first started, you know, doing some of this stuff. And back when we could buy. We bought a bunch of houses in South Minneapolis for $52,000 on my and I'm like, Why didn't I buy 150 of those right? Or did you have to do that. But we you know, we had some good investors and stuff back then I'm like, can we could have done that. And I don't know. I wish I would have bought more. It's the whole thing. Like we're, everybody tells you you shouldn't be doing that. Boy, you should be scared. You should actually be jumping in with both feet. Right? That's what he said. Yeah.

    Mark D. Williams 1:08:45

    What'd you guys do for fun when you're not working?

    1:08:48

    I'm a big outdoorsy guy. I love getting off the grid as much as possible hiking, fishing with my buddies are going off roading or something going to Glacier National Park stuff like that. So

    Mark D. Williams 1:09:01

    we got to Kevin out there for 25 years. Oh, really? Yeah. You know, a quorum is or Hungry Horse. Yeah, we had a read out of quorum. No one knows a quorum. So the fact that you know our quorum tells me you've been to West Glacier. Yeah, gas station, middle of nowhere. Yeah. But yeah, we were on that. Anyway, my sister moved to Alaska, and I was here with our family. And so my we are anyway, it was 1200 Miles doorstep to doorstep. We used to spend a lot of time out there. Yeah. Anyway, miss it.

    1:09:25

    Getting into nature. That's how we're successful, I

    Mark D. Williams 1:09:27

    think. Yeah, kind of helps you reset everything.

    1:09:30

    We both we both love to I love to travel. Yeah, we travel a lot. What? We are literally, Chad's leaving next Thursday, Thursday family going to Italy. And we're all joining up with our parents, with my girlfriend like a whole nother set of people and we're going on a Viking river cruises all together. It's been our parent's dream to go into in Europe. Okay, so

    Mark D. Williams 1:09:52

    in the Viking river cruises that up in the Nordic countries are as the Viking just the brand of the ship that's taking down like the Danube.

    1:09:58

    Yep, it's the brand of that and we're going down Daniel Okay, Budapest through German

    Mark D. Williams 1:10:01

    I'd be curious to know actually, that'd be off to check in with you with that to see I've heard a number of people that have done that and I've really enjoyed it. Yeah,

    1:10:09

    you know we're all scared we're like boy we're gonna have to have a walker you know get on this thing or like really think about it. It's like no, there's all sorts of people a lot of people go with their family or I mean there's people our age that are going alone now and just have to So yeah, it'll be exciting

    Mark D. Williams 1:10:24

    Very cool. Well thank you very much for your time guys and do appreciate it if those listening you enjoyed it. Where can they find you guys?

    1:10:31

    probably easiest is our websites or Instagram sustainable nine.com Or at sustainable nine, the number nine the numerical nine so

    Mark D. Williams 1:10:41

    or if you're at Cafe saris and Linden Hills you guys are just down the street from there so go grab a latte or lavender you know whatever drink and walk over and around your door. Very good. Well, if you've enjoyed this podcast please rate and review and share the only way this gets out to more people's if you share it and listen to it and feel free to leave some comments and if you're stopping by sustainable nine tell him you heard him on the curious builder. Thanks for coming in guys. Thank you

    Mark D. Williams 1:11:13

    Thanks for listening to the curious builder podcast if you like what you listen to please give us a five star rating and write us a review. It really means a lot. It's a great way for us to just understand what you like about the podcast and what we can keep doing so like and review and please share with your friends and family. Find out more at curious builder podcast.com

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