Episode 52 - Blueprint of Compassion: Giving Back and Tech-Wise Innovation
Episode #52 | Sven Gustafson | Blueprint of Compassion
In this heartwarming episode of The Curious Builder, we're moved by Sven Gustafson's heartfelt dedication to the 141 Project, making a real difference in the lives of families in Guatemala, one home at a time. We also peel back the layers of construction tech, marveling at how ECI Build Tools and emerging AI are revolutionizing the way we build. It's an inspiring blend of compassion and innovation that's sure to stir your soul—join us and feel the impact by sharing your thoughts with a glowing review!
Listen to the full episode:
About Sven Gustafson
Sven Gustafson grew up the son of a home builder, learning all aspects of building quality homes from the bottom up. Working summers for his father, Sven spent a lot of time on job sites & interacting with clients. “I always thought of my father as an artist, on a large scale & knew that I wanted to follow in his footsteps as I developed my company.”
The tradition continues with Stonewood, LLC, now led by J. Sven Gustafson. Our team of professional project managers has vast experience in the industry and is trained to build according to the highest standards for custom building defined by Stonewood. They enjoy the rigor and stability of working at Stonewood and build only a select few homes each year to ensure that each home and client receives the necessary time and effort to coordinate, immerse in the project, and interact with the daily requirements of each home.
Sven has worked with all of Stonewood’s clients from the inception of their project – assisting in architect interviews, aiding in the selection of a building site, and overseeing the project throughout construction.
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Mark D. Williams<br> 0:00
Welcome to the curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today, we're joined by Sven Gustafson from Stonewood. And revisions, Welcome, son. Thank you, we had you on a few episodes ago, and we did not have enough time to continue the conversation about the one for one project as well as build tool. So I wanted to bring you back on and really kind of explore those two topics, because I think you have a lot to share. And it's a very interesting story. So for those that haven't listen to that episode, you can check our website, careers builder podcast.com. And look back a few episodes and find out our introduction to Stonewood. And to spin. For those that have been there. Why don't we pick it up and talk a little bit about the one for one project? And why don't you tell us a little bit about how you started this nonprofit. And we'll just kind of go through what it is how people can even get involved is is a pretty powerful message. Sure.
Speaker 1 0:47
Well, I'll start with what it is, and then I can tell you about where it came from. So the one for one project is, is a charity where for every home we build, we donate one in Guatemala, and we apply the same concept to the remodeling as well, for a certain amount of volume, we donate a home in Guatemala, the idea is to is to extend the blessing of the homes that we're delivering here in Minnesota, to families that otherwise would never be able to afford a home. It sprung from a kind of a spur of the moment decision that I had 20 Some years ago, to go to Guatemala, with my church. And while I was there, I experienced building a home for family. And it was life changing. The the folks that we were serving, we were giving them very little, the the homes that were donating is a loose term, it's a 12 by 15 or so, cinderblock. Shed with a corrugated steel roof, a concrete floor, and a window and a door. And so it's it's not anything that any, any American would want to spend much time in. But for them, it's it's a safe place. It's a place where they can raise their family and stay out of the weather. And it's like I said, it's life changing. And the sheer appreciation and joy and smiles of the family that we we built this first home for left an impression that that I'll never forget. And, you know, it was it was at the time such a contrast to some of the projects I had going back home with clients that it no matter how perfect the home we were building, we were falling short of their expectations. And, and and even worse than that we were just terrible people because we couldn't meet their expectations, right. And so the idea came from that, that if, if nothing else, if building these homes for sometimes difficult clients could result in in some good work, I would make it worthwhile. So that's where the initial spark came from. And then years later, after a few more trips to Guatemala, I was having conversations with some of the builders in my in my builder group. And the topic was what what do you do for your clients, it's a movement, it is celebrated? What do you give them what sort of gift and all these kinds of simple ideas came out the things that all of us builders probably did all we give them a bottle of wine and some flowers and some builders would maybe cater a meal or fill the fridge with food or a tool sets, all these kinds of silly things in hindsight and, and that's where the idea came from was what our clients have everything and nothing we can give them as a gift is really that meaningful. It's a token. And so doing something that that is life changing on behalf of that client by donating a home was something that we felt would would make a greater impact. And, and also give us an opportunity to kind of share our heart and our faith with our clients. And it's opened a lot of doors it's really been one of the more meaningful things that that I'm able to do because of a homebuilder.
Mark D. Williams<br> 3:55
Correct. That's amazing. I love everything about what I just heard. How, how often do clients know about that ahead of time? Versus is obviously on your website? So you could search it out, but I mean, are people you How long have you been doing? I guess I should start with?
Speaker 1 4:13
Yeah, you know, we've been doing it for quite some time. And not until the last few years did we really formalize it and honestly, it was just me personally getting comfortable with with putting it out there that this is something that we do. didn't want it to feel like we were we were bragging about our good works and, you know, just trying to toe that fine line of, of letting people know what we're doing. But making sure that the reasons for it was was good. And I think probably as we partnered with Highmark builders and they started doing something similar and getting involved. That was kind of the spark of okay. The more we talk about this, the more we're going to draw other builders into it. Making sure that our clients understand And what we've done for them making it a bigger deal. Again, not not being brag boastful about it, but but just letting them know, we've done that's drawn in clients that have made donations on a yearly basis so that they're building homes. And so, you know, we've gotten pretty comfortable with it. The the advertising component is, is serving a really nice purpose, I think, yeah,
Mark D. Williams<br> 5:24
I love it. Do you ever have clients that would want to go on the trip itself? And how often do you still go down there with either the team or the foundation or the church, we'll we'll talk a little bit about them. That's an operating a nonprofit. But right now, from a client facing point of view, when you're presenting it to the client, what is often their reaction, both for when they know about it, and when they don't know about it.
Speaker 1 5:48
I think most of them, at this point, know that it's something that we do, it's a part of our culture, and it's a part of our conversation with our clients, and it's in our marketing. And so I think they're very appreciative, it's really cool that we're able to present clients with a photo of the family a story of the family, some before and after pictures of what they lived in, you know, this corrugated tin or, or, in some cases, kind of corn stock shack, and then what they ended up with this, you know, white stucco building and smiling family in front of it. So it I mean, it's, it's a real family, it's a real story. And it's, it's pretty powerful. And I think, you know, they, they feel that it's because of their home that this happened. And so it's, it's big. answer your question, though. I've been to Guatemala with my wife and my kids. Now, a couple of times, we've been down there 20 Plus ton of times over the years, we go yearly, and we've brought some clients, we're starting to bring some of our employees, I think the desire to go is greater than our ability to take people. And so there's other missionary groups, usually high school kids, from different parts of the United States to go down and build alongside with our, our local masons and going up, I'll actually get the work done. But we're trying to figure out how to how to expand that and bring more of our team and builder partners down be a part of that, because it's, it's seeing it firsthand, makes an impact. And it it keeps people engaged. And it makes an impact on the people that we're serving down there as well, that there's people that care, that, that don't have to come do this work, but they're doing it because they they they love them love them and and and want to improve their lives. How
Mark D. Williams<br> 7:35
did how did Highmark come into today? You knew they knew that you were doing it? Were they stumbling on it kind of independently. And Hi, Mark has other builders here in Minneapolis, for those that aren't familiar with. Hi, Mark. And then what other other other builders and how have you sort of we mentioned, you know, in our previous episode, how Minnesota in Minneapolis tends to be a very inclusive builder state, have you been able to kind of, you know, share that messaging with other builders to see if other people want to be a part of it locally?
Unknown Speaker 8:02
Well, that's what we're doing right now, hopefully. But yeah, you know, we don't do a lot of marketing
Speaker 1 8:09
is stone wood covers all of the overhead of the one for one project. So 100% of the donations that go into the organization go to building homes. And so the marketing that we do is, is the marketing that we're able to fund. externally. Highmark got involved, because we met them through a builder club. I think we were in Ireland, maybe when we started talking about it. And Jim and Terry are just amazing guys. Very similar hearts. They, they, they, they're, they're working hard so that they can serve others. And they're very generous. And so that's how they got involved. Number of the builders for my builder 20 group are also involved. And then just through some of the other associations and marketing, we've drawn in quite a few builders around the country, the Association of Professional builders, is a strong partner, as their members renew their memberships. They make donations to the one for one project on a monthly basis, and their members learn about what we're doing. And so we've drawn in a few members through that organization as well. You know, last
Mark D. Williams<br> 9:14
year, I was at the International bullish show, and I was visiting one of our sponsors, adaptive actually at the time, and then right behind them. You you were there. Yeah. With the one for one project, and then that kind of I think was your lead liaison. It was a lady I don't remember her name.
Speaker 1 9:28
She was on Betty, Marita. Yep. And her, her her assistant Carla. Okay.
Mark D. Williams<br> 9:34
And what was so what is her role in the one for one project? And then we'll talk a little bit about how you found you know, that was your chance to kind of market at international below shows we might talk a little bit about, you know, kind of outreach and things that you're finding success within some things that you're not finding success with? Yeah,
Speaker 1 9:52
we couldn't do this without Betty. Betty is an amazing woman who, who helps facilitate that. Selecting the families and getting the houses built, I mean, she really does all the hard work and Guatemala of taking the funding that we're able to get to her and getting her work done. But beyond that, she does so much more. She has built a training center, where she has, oh, several dozen students that that do after schoolwork, their tutoring. She gets them to and from school, and changes lives. She, it would take another episode to talk about all of the work she does in Guatemala. But she's, she's a pretty amazing person.
Mark D. Williams<br> 10:33
She sounds like she's basically the hub of the community and helps basically facilitate the community involvement, because it sounds like a pretty special community that is being built on there.
Speaker 1 10:41
Yeah, you know, we we have a ton of trust in what she does. You know, selecting the families that receive the homes that we're building is, is that quite a process, she has a social worker on staff that will meet the hundreds of families that apply for homes and the vet them, they need to own the land that we're building the homes on. So they have to do some legal work to make sure that we're building on a piece of property that's not going to be taken away, and then just assess the need. And we can only build so many homes about 100. Year.
Mark D. Williams<br> 11:13
A lot. Hey, going back to your you had mentioned your dad previously, who was a builder, that his high point hit about 100 homes. So you can actually say that you do have you know if you could speak, I suppose so I hear you doing 100 homes. I like a different scale. You've
Speaker 1 11:26
you branched out to other countries, you're international. Yeah, we are. Yep. And world headquarters is right here and was out of Minnesota,
Mark D. Williams<br> 11:32
I think I spent some time in Africa, you know, in my early 20s. And I remember talking to a guy that we were climbing around Kilimanjaro, and he was asking for some donations for his family and through the years just personally of confidence and stuff to help us get through school because it was important that he had mentioned how one thing that we did, I didn't know about and one of the benefits of traveling is understanding that like not everyone has, you know, not only the American banking system, but like mortgages, and I don't know if Guatemala has this or I'm asking the question is like in Africa, they can only build the house in cash as they get the money. So if you have $500, you can build maybe the east wall the house, so you get another $500 next year you build. So they have to kind of it always looks like it's incomplete, but they sort of are building in stages, as they accumulate money, they didn't have the ability to go borrow money, have a mortgage, finance the house and do it as most, you know, people the United States would probably be in some form of housing, at least if you're listening to this, you likely are is Guatemala in a similar state in terms of like how a home is funded? Is that why not only obviously will speak to why home is so fundamental, but the process of actually doing it is that similar?
Speaker 1 12:36
Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if mortgages exist in Guatemala, I suspect they do. But certainly not for the people that were serving. These homes cost 2500 hours each to build labor and materials, very often will go into a project and there will be a pile of cinder blocks that they're buying one or two at a time as they can afford them with the planet building home at some point. And so that's that's a pretty common process. You drive around Guatemala City and pongo the community that we work in. And many, many homes, especially the larger ones will have rebar and concrete sticking out the roof for the next level. They're planning for when they can afford to add the second storey different situation with the folks who are serving you know, they're like I said, they're, they're saving up by investing in the building materials as they go and accumulating them.
Mark D. Williams<br> 13:27
How have you immune you obviously made it extremely personal? What did what you brought your children down there? What are your What are your kids say about aircraft? Imagine it being that you were a young man, when he went down there in the impact it had on you and what you've done with it. A lot of people have had impactful things, but not many people have had something happened like that, and then act on it in the way that you did. Well, I guess I'm sure I'm guessing. You didn't have this all premeditated ahead of time. But What messages do you share with your kids now? And how do they react to what they see? You
Speaker 1 14:00
know, I hope it made an impact. It's hard to know. But just seeing how how folks in third world countries live, you can see it on TV. And you can see pictures and you can be told stories but until you see it firsthand. I don't think it quite makes the same impact. And so I hope my kids remember that. They see kids that are you know, playing in in, you know, a Cornstalk home you know, not wearing shoes and spending the day with us without school and just how little they have but how joyful they are. That that's the impact that it I think that it's hard for anybody to see that and and not be impacted. And everyone that we've taken on these trips has stayed involved. We do a yearly fundraiser and they're the first to get up and call for donations and tell the stories and and get get pretty loud about their excitement about it. You got to do this because of It's really important and it's life changing and get out your checkbooks. And it's, you know, they're they're passionate about it.
Mark D. Williams<br> 15:06
That's the admission it was to your local church here that you first they had a relationship with that, why why Guatemala? Why that specific place?
Speaker 1 15:15
Um, you know, I don't know why Guatemala was chosen for that particular trip. In my story was I just broken up a relationship and was at church, and it was last call to go to go to Guatemala and I had nothing going. So I grew up there I'm in because I, my schedule just opened up. And on that trip, I met my, my now wife, and, and a lot of my best friends. And so it was it was life changing in a lot of ways. Wow. Yeah.
Mark D. Williams<br> 15:47
There's no joke that there's some divine intervention there. By the sounds of your Yeah, for sure. You know, being, you know, someone that also tries to be a Christian as well, I think even in thinking about this, I was just thinking about the parallel of a home, and what it can be for a family and having a dad and trying to relate to some of these things. But, you know, a Christian principle, I mean, Jesus healed a lot of people. But you know, so that he could, that was a miracle, actually. But the real miracles, what you could do after in that sort of vein and thought, you know, having a Christian organization help facilitate a place where someone who is hungry and homeless and needs a place to live, how has that helped facilitate either the gospel message, or there's obviously a natural part here, I'm not discounting that at all, because it's very needed and important, but you know, what have you seen in their lives, even from maybe a spiritual standpoint, because I have to imagine that that's part of the messaging as well.
Speaker 1 16:40
Absolutely. You know, and it's not something that we we necessarily broadcast, but it's a it's a, it's our website, we're not hiding behind anything. It's a Christian organization, we're doing it. Because we're called to do serve others, and because of our faith, but the house is really the first step, it's kind of a foot in the door with these families, we require that the family works with us, while we're building the house, we require that they, they've got some financial skin in the game. So they have a certain amount of money that they have to put into it as well. And so being able to spend the week building a house with the family, we have social workers, we have a pastor, that is a part of that process that's on site, meeting these families and getting to know them, and building a relationship, hopefully getting their children involved in the tutoring programs and the training center work that they do. And, and, and being able to have that that those conversations about faith, which is the most important part of what we're doing. And one of the other things that the Betty's organization does is once the house is built, she'll offer them bunk beds, so that that house can really double in size when you've got beds stacked, right. And in order to get that you have to go through a series of, of educational series on alcoholism, on sexual abuse, and on hygiene. And once the parents go through that, and they get this bunk bed, donate to them, like a very special person. She's, she's unique. Yeah, she's amazing.
Mark D. Williams<br> 18:13
I mean, this education piece, and we take for granted or I do you know, the amount of educational benefits that you have. And you know, I have three young kids who are a little younger than yours. On our last episode, you had mentioned that I think it was what 1710 and eight, somewhere around there, 1310 and 1300 8753. So I'm about five, six years behind you of that. But you know, as a parent, you sometimes don't realize how much teaching you do by your daily actions. And I always say that kids can sniff out hypocrisy faster than anything on the planet. And me, they really see if something is honest or true or dishonest. And so as you're, as a dad trying to teach this stuff, it becomes very apparent that what you're teaching them, they're gonna see the truth of it. So be honest about it. And where I'm going with this is that, you know, as you are building this home with these people, the humanity of it is a beautiful thing. Like, I love the idea that you're working with these people. They're working with you, you know, the, you know, the pastor in the in the ministry is there like it's everyone is there together, I imagine open format. And I would assume that it's, you know, not sort of a pay to play like, you know, if you come to the church for this long, then you get a house. I assume it's probably more open than that. But you can speak more to that.
Speaker 1 19:23
Yeah, it's really based on need and, and kind of first come first serve, you know, if they meet the criteria, there's a long list and as we build homes and communities, Ellis gross. Houses are being donated
Mark D. Williams<br> 19:36
100 homes a year is no joke. I mean, that's a lot of homes.
Speaker 1 19:39
That's the capacity. I don't know that we've hit that quite yet. But that's our capacity, and it will certainly hit it this year with we're having a good year.
Mark D. Williams<br> 19:47
Should those that want to help is the I mean, obviously funding has to happen. You had mentioned that, you know, your ability for those that you would want to go there is maybe somewhat limited. You know, what are I thing a lot of times people I'll speak for myself a lot of times I don't, you know, I you read the paper, you stay informed, but you sometimes don't know I've elected to do some stuff locally that I can be directly impacted on, I think everyone's called to a differently, there's no right or wrong. But I feel like a lot of people want to do something, but they don't know a how to do it, they don't know where to do it in what you're doing with the one for one project is giving them a place that they can kind of fulfill some of those needs that they didn't, that they don't know how to fulfill? How would that kind of wrapping of a question how that people can most help the one for one project.
Speaker 1 20:40
You know, honestly, it's financial and just spreading the word, you $2,500 builds a home. And you can see that the actual family that was served as those homes are built. But you know, we're working on, on growing the organization so that, that more and more folks can can actually visit and put boots on the ground and be a part of that process. It's kind of funny. When we go down to help build a home, we slow the process down. It's it's the funny story that every time we take a new family down there, they'll see that we'll work all morning and we'll get two or three levels of block laid on the house. And then the Americans will go take lunch, the Masons keep working and we come back and there's seven new layers. In 15 minutes, we disappeared and got out of their way. And so it took some getting used to to, you know, what are we doing here? We're just slowing this process down. Why don't we just save the money in the plane tickets and the hotel, just send the money. But it's the relationships that mean as much as the home? And so yeah, it's it's an important component of what we're doing. But going back to Betty in some of your questions earlier, her organization is called breaking cycles. And that the meaning behind that is truly breaking the cycle of poverty and these families that getting the kids to school, helping them to do something other than working in the coffee fields or working in the market. Really going through the same process that Betty went through, where her she made the decision to go to school and her mother made the decision to to send her to school rather than to continue in what was the family business of selling chicken in the market. That's what she's trying to do to educate people that the next generation doesn't have to do this and and through the donations of the one for one project and the cherry Avenue organization, being able to pay for the schooling for these kids so that it can help offset the income that the families would otherwise have if their kids went and worked in the coffee fields or the cornfields or
Mark D. Williams<br> 22:43
is there a lot of local support can be How are how is the word from our project received down there? Obviously, for those that are a part of that? Of course, they would feel I would imagine gratitude. That's amazing, but it destroying the community? What is the relationship, you know, with the community and with one for one?
Speaker 1 22:58
I think it's it's, it's huge. I think Betty is very much appreciated in her community. She is a leader. And at least the folks that live in the community see her as a huge blessing. Guatemala has a terribly corrupt government. It redundant statement, they're a corrupt government. But there's more corrupt than most. And so navigating that is is a constant complexity of what she does down there.
Mark D. Williams<br> 23:31
It's tough to get involved with that at all, or how does you know, we'll talk a little bit about I've always been fascinated, firstly, about how you run out nonprofit how it works. And we'll talk about maybe the business mechanics of that in a second. But I mean, piggybacking that with the government, you know, getting funds to and through to vetti is out been a challenge or a learning curve for you.
Speaker 1 23:51
Yeah, I think we've we've got that figured out, at least for now until something else changes. But it's been difficult over the years. It you know, Guatemala is one of the most corrupt and violent places in the world. And so just having fun sit in Guatemala, and Betty being in charge of those funds is not safe. So we've had to deal with some things to just make sure that we're doing it in a way that's going to protect her and protect the funding and, and keep things from from being skimmed by different folks.
Mark D. Williams<br> 24:24
Right. Wow. Interesting. It sounds like you could talk to a number of other agencies throughout the world as they distribute their funds in a way that that doesn't get taken advantage of. What at what point because it's not a political talk show. At what point at what point did you learn that you need to just kind of put some of those safeguards in kind of the early days or did it there was any difficult experiences that like whoa, this is going to change how we do things. You
Speaker 1 24:49
know, I think always good just wiring funds to Guatemala. He would would take weeks, you know, an instant transfer and then funds don't become available for a while. So just little things like that just big navigating international banking, and figuring out how to get her money without it being too problematic. You know, setting up the nonprofit in the United States so that the donations were taking in, had another benefit for the folks who were actually donating. So that was tax deductible, all the normal things. The this last couple of years, the government decided that they didn't like nonprofits operating in, in Guatemala. And so they, they changed the rules behind the scenes didn't really tell anybody. And and they decided that if you didn't, refile your organizational papers and declare all of your assets in Guatemala, that your nonprofit would be deemed null and void and all the assets would go to the government. Many, many nonprofits and Guatemala folded because of that. We had a builder in Michigan that donated a funding for a new school bus. And this is kind of a pretty cool story. This is God working in the background through this, this just happenstance donation, donated this school bus. And in order to own a commercial vehicle in Guatemala, you had to have a different kind of an organization. And so Betty went to set that organization up so that she could purchase school bus and I found out that these laws had changed, he had days to make these registrations and things and, and narrowly avoided having all of her assets seized by the government. So, you know, I think that was God working in the background, it wasn't just a school boss, it was it was what saved her little organization. But you know, a corrupt government, there's always some little thing that's they're working to trip her up in, there's so many stories that I can tell there are along those same lines, where she's just trying to keep her head above water, to do the good work she's doing.
Mark D. Williams<br> 26:49
I mean, the sharing of stories is obviously such a powerful tool to educate people. How often do you know, especially your clients that you're giving this amazing gift to? And for those that would volunteer their time or their donations? How do you communicate that messaging back to them? You know, from Guatemala, they're doing testimonials? And you mentioned the photo in the house, but how do you kind of stay in touch, you know, if you will, with kind of what's happening?
Speaker 1 27:17
Yeah, you know, we do some email marketing, we have a fundraiser every year where Betty comes from Guatemala and gives us an update. I think there's nothing better than hearing from from her what's going on, and what she is telling stories of different students that that are being sponsored, telling stories of, of the folks that are receiving the homes. We post before and after pictures of every home, we build on the website, that one for one.org. So those are the primary ways that we're communicating with folks.
Mark D. Williams<br> 27:49
Where do you see GDC, you have a lot of networking opportunities or collaboration with other entities that are doing similar work, or how's that opened up your eyes to, you know, basically other organizations that are doing similar things.
Speaker 1 28:03
We're all about collaboration. It's just for lack of time that that we haven't done more with it yet. We're still a pretty young organization, I think is a nonprofit in the US. And my full time job is building houses. So always looking for volunteers, I was looking for partnership opportunities. And we've we've we've come across some some fantastic people that have come alongside us and mostly just through funding, and and basically mirroring what we're doing at stone wood and revision with donating homes. Well,
Mark D. Williams<br> 28:35
it's it's wonderful story. Thanks for sharing. We'll have everything in the show notes as well. And, you know, we'll do some additional posts specifically about one for one, when this episode comes out. Where can listeners find the specific portal? Or is it just one for one project?
Speaker 1 28:50
The one for one dot o RG confusing name? Everyone thinks it's the 141 project. The one for one one house for one house?
Mark D. Williams<br> 28:59
Yeah, I think they need me actually is quite cheap. Given that for me, I gave them their pieces. So about Stonewood and revisions. One for One is a very clever play on words. So well, amazing worth. We've had in our previous episode, we had Mark Ostrom on from the joy collaborative. I don't know if you've ever met him, if not, I should put you guys in touch. He does stuff here locally for kids in need. And so we're gonna be doing some fundraising stuff for him later this year. So, you know, I could talk offline about, you know, what we can do or what the IRS code can do in terms of broadcasts to be grainy, something other than obviously sharing it as we are now. But I think as we're doing networking groups, and we're having builders on, you know, I think it's a I think there'd be a lot alignment and hopefully people listening will reach out to you after this episode, and we can kind of move the needle. Yep, please do. Kind of moving on to a second part here. One of the things that we had mentioned in our previous interview was you had mentioned that you went to college as a software developer or that was your first job up out of college. I
Speaker 1 30:00
didn't go to college. I was a poli sci major. It just maybe this is a talk show for politics could be Yeah, don't get me going. It's an election year, right? No, I poli sci. I don't know what to do with that if you're not a politician or attorney, I decided to go into software development. And I did that for a few years post college and before getting involved in the family business. And as I mentioned, I, I intentionally got out of that before I got too comfortable because I knew early on that I wanted to be a homebuilder. I think I ended up in poli sci because I didn't see anything else that other than some econ classes, really entrepreneurship, that really applied to building houses. So house building school. So developed software for a while, because it was an opportunity to learn and your great opportunity for first job out of college, but but quit that and joined up with my family and tried to add value wherever I could, as I as I truly learned the business. Hopefully getting paid to build houses rather than just working with a family growing up. Yeah.
Mark D. Williams<br> 31:11
How would you drew your evolution of, you know, obviously being hired by working with your mom and dad learning the ropes, you know, building building homes, kind of at what point you mentioned, how your dad had a checkbook for different accounts. And so this was obviously before computers were, you know, used regularly, you mentioned that you bought the first computer for the company,
Speaker 1 31:33
I'd say the computers were being used regularly, just not by the construction company. When I got involved.
Mark D. Williams<br> 31:37
I said, this was in prehistoric times. I guess my point in saying that was at what point did you realize that there was an opportunity to use your skills as a software developer, and start developing what became build tools, which is, you know, software for builders, by builders. Walk us through that evolution, when you had the idea and how to how it maturate it? Yeah,
Speaker 1 31:58
you know, it evolved kind of from an Excel spreadsheet, I developed all of the systems within our small construction company to manage monthly payment requests, and you name it everything we're doing scheduling. And you know, as as the Internet became more and more prevalent. We found a couple of online tools that we started using to manage a lot of our practices, we we started using a product called builds licks, it had a lot of promise looked a bit like builder trend and, and what what is now build tools. And we use that for probably a year to the point where our employees almost mutinied and said, You know what this makes our job harder. And like I said, it had a lot of promise. But it wasn't built for a cost plus open book, custom homebuilder, it was built for a model option builder, and we were able to kind of wrangle our team around it and make it work. But it didn't deliver on the promise of really creating inefficiency. And so we pulled the plug on that. And it built a couple of very rudimentary tools to manage change orders and manage our budgets. And and then grew from there. I hired a software developer to build a change order management system online, because that was our pain point in time. And he did a really nice job, super fun. And a you know, I got giddy about it. Alright, now let's do this next thing. And then we built a budget. And then we built. I don't know, document management and, and we just kind of grew this tool, module by module. But what we did differently than, say builder trend is we we built it all based on the budget. So we had this core that everything tied back to, and it all kind of it made sense. It had a budget that that was the core of it, the change order is tied back to a budget code that purchase orders tied back to a budget code, the selections tied back to a budget code. And it while it was it was grown module by module, it had a rhythm to it. And it even though was very complex, the data was all shared between the modules in a very smart way. As opposed to some of the other tools that are out there. And we just use it internally. And then going back to our last conversation about the the builder 20 group. I wouldn't shut up about this tool that we built. And, you know, my my conversation in our meetings was less about building homes and more about the software that I built. And they started using it. And then we ran a couple Google ads and and let's see if anyone's willing to pay for this thing. And it took off. Was
Mark D. Williams<br> 34:39
that so What year was this that this kind of all was happening?
Speaker 1 34:42
Oh boy. i Yeah, I lose track. It was probably it's probably 15 years ago. 1215 years ago. Yep. And
Mark D. Williams<br> 34:50
at the time that you so it was you obviously built it out of necessity in your own need and having your own skill set and then just kind of adding it on. Did you have an idea that You knew what it was going to become, or you were to simply solving a need. And it sort of happened. It kind of was growing. I mean, you knew about it, but you understand what I'm saying. Like it kind of grew out of necessity. And then it became something like, oh, well, we've got something, it grew
Speaker 1 35:13
out of necessity, because it wasn't a product that did things in the way that we wanted to do them. You know, we could use a product like buildertrend. And we could use the parts that worked and now use the parts that didn't work. And it kind of muddle through the things that didn't make sense. But so much of those products didn't make sense. They, they were built by software engineers. They weren't built by people that were actively building homes. And I think some of them even kind of beat their chests and said, Oh, we're smart software guys. And I was building a house. And the process was so confusing that I decided to build a tool to fix my builder. But they don't know anything about building out. And so what people continually said about build tools was this works just like we do, and that the nomenclature, that terminology is, we we call them the change order and not modification agreement, or like, I mean, this is rudimentary things like that, that these these guys just didn't get Procore, same thing was built by somebody that went through the process and thought it could be done better. And so as a software guy had built, built this tool, but most builders look at it, and like, I can see how I can make it work. But it doesn't totally make sense.
Mark D. Williams<br> 36:22
The other thing is, well, I'll get back to that question in a minute. So as you are unveiling this to your build a 20 group, and then you're testing the market, where you only at that time selling it out of state, I remember hearing about it. I had sampled buildertrend A little bit. And it was we only at the time doing a handful of homes. And I kind of had a revolt from the people that I was trying to introduce it to and like we don't want anything to do with this. It's not ready for us. And then maybe it was a couple of years later. I think it was actually Jared. Jared Johnson. So he had worked for me for a short period of time with high school together. But you guys had a childhood friendship as well. And he actually left working as a project manager for us for just a few months left and work for you went to you know, create a run build tool. He was
Speaker 1 37:06
the antis anyone from construction to being a software product manager.
Mark D. Williams<br> 37:09
Shout out to Jaron F. Anyway, at what point did you start selling it in state? Was there ever a point where you were not selling it to your local competitors? You're always selling out state? Yeah, it
Speaker 1 37:19
kind of happened organically. I mean, honestly, I felt like it was such a big part of who we were that I didn't want to share it with any of our competitors.
Mark D. Williams<br> 37:25
So unique it was a different maker was a sales maker was I mean, I can see how that would be a huge advantage. We
Speaker 1 37:30
had builders in in, you know, Texas markets that said, Hey, we're in we want to sign up for this. But can we pay more, so you won't sell it to anybody else in our market? So they saw the same thing that we saw that? Boy, this is something that is creating such an efficiency. And it's such a differentiator that we wanted this to be our secret sauce?
Mark D. Williams<br> 37:53
Did you do that? Did you sell it to him at a higher rate? So that you kind of have I think
Speaker 1 37:57
there were a couple where we probably said yes or no, yeah, we weren't sell to anybody else, are not really marketing either. So it was an easy sell. So, you know, I think in Minnesota market, it happened a little organically, we just we grew to a point where, you know, what, if one of our competitors wants to use it, great. You know, there's a lot of options out there, it's not as unique as it was 10 years earlier. And if one of my competitors wants to pay me for my software, well, I think I can use that as in my sales pitch that our competitors are using our software to run their, their construction companies, which is still the case. In a lot of cases, we know a thing or two about running the back end or the front end of managing all this information and, and know a thing or two about the processes of building a home so much so that our competitors use our software. Okay, you know, we just got to get comfortable with that position,
Mark D. Williams<br> 38:49
right? I imagine that at some point, people would ask you or feel uncomfortable, like, Well, man, you built a software, you know, everything. Like I'm putting all my financial details in here. Yeah, not so much from your point of view, because you would be kind of king of the castle. But for those that would maybe be signing up for it, and you're like, oh, man, we're gonna compete against stone, what are the job? That's your parent company? Man, Spencer's gonna know everything that we've got into your face those but
Speaker 1 39:11
yeah, I had a few conversations about that let you look, I'm not gonna look under the hood and look at your data. If you're worried about that, you use a different product. But you know, I, I'm a home builder, and I've got this software company and I have people that are running it. So you just you're gonna have to trust us that we're not going to do that. And we spent a lot of time making sure that the data was segregated as well. That was one of my big fears is just like the builders that are maybe going to use our tool. I don't want my data to accidentally end up in, in someone else's system. And so we we spent a lot of time just engineering it so that they was all very siloed and, and safe.
Mark D. Williams<br> 39:52
How did you have the time to, you know, build build tools and now you hired out a portion of it. At what point did you assemble a team to kind of oversee or to walk us through the kind of the creation of this that you hear a lot about, you know, people want to make an app, but it sounds really cool and sexy and whatnot, there's a lot of work that goes into it a ton of stuff that doesn't work that you figure out, as I assume the last thing you want to do is unveil something, and then tick off a bunch of people, which inevitably does sort of happen. It just is kind of the nature of the beast, I would imagine. But how did you manage the team while you're also building, you know, high end custom homes and remodeling as well? Family? Yeah,
Speaker 1 40:27
we were our own little laboratory, right. I mean, our software engineers were all offshore, we had a Belgian living in Costa Rica, that was the core of our, of our development team, really smart guy, he could see 10 steps down the road. And as I was designing things, he was telling me the problems that were gonna happen if he if we did it my way. And so we fix it. You know, a lot like a lot like the one for one project, and Betty, Marita, it couldn't happen without these really smart people that, that we're doing the heavy lifting. And you know, that in conjunction with our office being a laboratory for this, when we wanted to figure out how to build a module that issued purchase orders. All right, let's go talk to our purchasing guy and understand how his job works. And where are the inefficiencies and how can we make this better. It was a time, that was an inspirational moment on purchase orders when I watched my purchasing manager for print appeal out of our out of our accounting software. And then he went and scanned it, because there wasn't a PDF maker, I think, or something at the time, that then he emailed off, somebody already faxed it and then filed the I mean, it was a very tedious, it was a 15 minute process to send a purchase order. And we figured out we can do this with a couple of clicks. So it's all those little, just watching how the process is not working and and then let the software engineers fix it.
Mark D. Williams<br> 41:49
When I was introduced to it, and I can't remember what year it would have been, let's call it 2012 1314. Somewhere in there, I'm guessing I My first reaction to seeing the software display kind of seeing it happen, it was how clean the interface was. And it reminded me of kind of Apple products. You know, they talked about how much design time goes into, you know, the intuitive nature of Apple. And you know, it's a shout out to your entire team for creating something like that. I remember graphically, I really like strong branding in imagery, but also clean and simple. And I felt like your product not only had it, but now it makes more sense of why it was so intuitive, you know, a builder and having your software background build it together. It wasn't one or the other. It was kind of ying and yang working together to get it because I'll tell you what it was one, it was a very smooth sailing machine it like anything, there's things that it was evolving, and there's things that still needed to do. You know, sometimes looking back, I'm sure you like, Wow, I can't believe that we did do this that another thing? Oh, for sure. We're looking at it through the lens up, you know, it's 15 years since it started, right. So so much has changed.
Speaker 1 42:49
The look and feel was always important to me. You know, it's it's a piece of software that in my organization still today, my employees use, it's between that and their email, it's the only two applications they use. So we have employees that are staring at this seven hours a day and doing their whole job through that that tool. And so making it easy to use with the fewest number of clicks. And just making it make sense was important. And making it pretty was important as well.
Mark D. Williams<br> 43:20
If people don't enjoy the experience, and it's not clean, that they will find reasons not to use it. Yeah, there's a lot of truth behind that.
Speaker 1 43:28
The, you know what, one of the major challenges in building this thing, once we started opening it up to outside builders was we're a small, nimble growing software company, and we can do anything we want. And so filtering out what we should do and what we could do. So many builders across the country do things in just bizarre ways. And so you fighting the urge to add features that made no sense, just because it would make a sale and it would, it would make that builder happy. But it would bloat this product into some Franken software.
Mark D. Williams<br> 44:03
Like give me an example that sounds too juicy or the one boy I
Speaker 1 44:07
don't know. I mean, just the way it's hard to describe but a lot of things have revolved around fees and, and hiding fees and marking things up and and being able to decipher how they were hiding money in one line item but not showing it to the clients. And you know, honestly kind of creating some
Mark D. Williams<br> 44:27
was that the Madoff building group out of New York and has that has a William something out of minutes? No,
Speaker 1 44:33
no, no, they're just all sorts of goofy things like that, where you get very much like the building business boy, I can make the sale if I do this thing. But it's not the right thing to do. So we're not going to do it. And
Mark D. Williams<br> 44:45
who made those? I mean, did you as a collective group, but you gotta you got all these emails or all these other companies up on your dashboard. You have, let's say, a Monday meeting or whatever you've met, and you would see all these things up on the board. And as a team, you'd kind of vote for him or were you kind of at that point you were you You know, essentially the head and you're like, No, no, no, no, it just kind of deciding right then in there, how did you do the review process of what made sense? And what, what was part of the core vision versus what was it versus maybe it could be, but we don't know what to do with it,
Speaker 1 45:11
it was just ongoing conversations, because it was always we're always tweaking features and adding things that made sense. You know, again, back to the fee a bit trying to accommodate a fixed bid builder, and a cost plus builder, all in one, one system where, you know, one builder showing his fee as a line on the other is mixing his percentage into every line item. One is, is just showing the bottom line, but wants to be able to track everything and not disclose it all. And so if it was, it's a pretty complex piece of software with a lot of permissions and little switches, you can flip to do things in a different way. And then we start working in markets that have sales tax, that the builder has to add sales tax as a line item in their budget. And then Canadians with the crazy taxes they have in VAT. And we at one point we had, we had Italians and Australians and French builders all using the systems and now we're adding languages. So it got pretty complex. And just, you know, it was an ongoing process of okay, are we going to translate this to Thai? I don't think so. For the one builder,
Mark D. Williams<br> 46:19
how, so you know, the secret's out, you, you sold the company, walk us a little bit through that evolution, how you were approached how you decided, and mainly just as there's those listening, that are curious about business, but there's a lot of people, there's a lot of interest, especially with, you know, the landscape we'll talk about after this, you know, AI coming over here, and just where this evolves, I think a lot of people want to develop things and figure out like, how do I do a side business that also complements my main business? So walk us through the evolution of the sale of your company, when you knew it was the right time? And what kind of go from there?
Speaker 1 46:56
Yeah, um, you know, I think it was the time was determined, just by the opportunity, we had rebuilt the product from the ground up fixed a lot of the, the bugs under the hood, I want to point out, right, that was 2.0. And the 1.0 version was, was truly a Franken product, we bolted so many different things together with open source this and open source that and when we showed it to the crew that was going to redevelop it into the 2.0 version, I distinctly remember them saying this actually works. Like they were horrified. Probably 80% of the code was just dead code that just hadn't been removed, it was it was ugly. So you know, we spent a couple of years rebuilding the product into something that we were proud of that that operated really well, in massaging the features and, and making it work more quickly. And, in hindsight, that was the easy part, marketing a software product and, and building the user base. And the amount of money and effort that goes into to maintaining the clients and avoiding churn clients that are bouncing from one product to another is truly the hard part. And so you know, the opportunity to sell it to a group that is a 2500 person, company with marketing departments and marketing channels, I think was the right thing for the product, we were at a point where we'd be spending millions of dollars, just to get word out that we have a better mousetrap. And it that would have become my full time job. So it was really a choice between continuing to build houses or or being an operator of a software company and raising raising venture capital and going down that path. That
Mark D. Williams<br> 48:37
opportunity they came to you How did how did that opportunity present itself? Yeah,
Speaker 1 48:41
we had a couple of a couple of groups come to us simultaneously with interest. ECI is a company that focuses in a lot of different areas, but they've got a pretty robust construction practice. And before their acquisition of build tools. They didn't have a product that would have appealed to builders like you and I, they were very, I think they've got a large part of the market share, if you're a production home builder, and they have software at lumber yards, that's talking to their production, you know, their production builder software. So this kind of rounded out their software offering. So it was a good fit for them. And they're based out of Texas as I read. They are great company great people. You know, they we share a similar heart. They do some very great stuff. charitably. And they've just been they've been wonderful people.
Mark D. Williams<br> 49:31
If you how many years is that? No.
Speaker 1 49:34
Oh, I lost track three, four years. I think he sold them that business.
Mark D. Williams<br> 49:38
Now, obviously, you're still a user of build tools. How is it still under the name build tools?
Speaker 1 49:45
It is? Yep. They have little more inclusive branding. So it's a build tool. I think it's ECI build tools are so it's changed his look a little bit how
Mark D. Williams<br> 49:54
like anything that you've grown. You had it for 10 years, 13 years or 15 years, however long it was What's it like now having sold? It's the right opportunity? I mean, like anything, it's kind of like you see it kind of graduate and go to college. And there's got to be some regrets about you know, this that another thing? Or is it kind of have you energized maybe to do something different? Because so much Think of how much the landscape has changed in the last four years? Especially with, you know, AI?
Speaker 1 50:19
Yeah. You know, it was, it was an exciting time. It was a baby. It was, it was super fun. And I really enjoyed building the software. But as I told you earlier, having lived in 30, some homes over the years and moving every six months, I don't get too attached to things. And so, you know, I think it's in good hands. And it is, it's a very competitive product, I think it's better built and the feature set is, is still far superior to anything that's out there. But your comments about AI, I think that's going to change the landscape significantly. One of the things that the builder trend has working against it or CO construct has worked against it is just the the number of users and the legacy of the the people that are using it trying to make a small change to that just moving, moving an icon or a button confuses you know, 2000 companies. And so I think once you have a platform with a large user base, it's it that's a liability is more than it's an asset, in terms of evolving to the next thing. AI is, is going to change this this product category, every product category dramatically. Imagine if, if you could if you could inject a large language model chat GTP GPT style interface in Deville tools and simply ask it, what was the last last conversation we had about a tile selection? Or what you know, what, how much are we you know, you could have it do math equations, just the budget, and how much you as, as these products, integrate email and text and all the information that is, is inbuilt tools, a purchase orders a change orders selections a document, you could ask it any aspect of the house and have it turn through all the data and give you the correct answer in moments. So I think that's something that's going to change that product.
Mark D. Williams<br> 52:21
That's interesting friends, and I'm just thinking about, you know, you have you know, your photos, you have your documents, you have your bids, you have your POS you have your, you know, the plans, the plan updates, the design input, the client approved change, or something, just all the questions you could ask, I mean, obviously, you have the budgets, but you can say how much do I need to cheat charge on this change order? You know, or what, you'd have just simple stuff that the software is already telling you that I'm sure you got better examples than that. But I'm just thinking of like, you know, what, what are the next three change? Or is most likely going to be
Speaker 1 52:51
pretty? Yeah, or, you know, yeah, I think so. You could have it be predictive, you can have it churn through past budgets, I mean, hypothetically, right? Boy, that we've got a three story house of 6800 feet that's in this styles, it can, what it can do that historical data is going to be pretty interesting. And it can it can wait, the more current projects heavier than the older projects, it's gonna be able to do some pretty cool stuff. We record all of our design meetings, and all of our budget conversations with clients, in format in teams. So you know, if we're sitting our conference room, we're recording it so that we can look back and make sure we didn't make mistakes and hold everybody accountable. But AI will be able to look at that. And like I said earlier, what was the decision we made on the tile in the master bathroom, it'll have access to all those conversation transcripts, and be able to tell you that we're I'm already using tools like chat GPT to create budgets for me feeding it multiple spreadsheets, having an average per square foot and give me hypothetical budgets line by line. And it doesn't. It takes some training, but it does a pretty good job.
Mark D. Williams<br> 53:56
Oh, that's yeah, that's, that's kind of cool with the
Speaker 1 53:59
off the shelf free product, right? Is it just imagine in a year is this the specific tools are developed with those technologies? It's, it's going to be pretty, pretty game changing?
Mark D. Williams<br> 54:10
How do you I mean, you have at least four companies that I've know about that you've been talking about previously. America ask you how many other companies you have that you haven't talked about, but what company would you like to start? I mean, do you have an interest in in doing something like this again? And if what space it doesn't even have to be technology could be copper, anything, but I mean, what is what's next? I mean, you clearly like building teams, I mean, you have the nonprofit you have, you know, built, you know, software you have, you know, building company, everybody company. You enjoy the process, I would imagine it Yeah.
Speaker 1 54:44
what my father was an amazing entrepreneur. And it would it would take a whole show to talk about all the businesses that he owned and operated over the years and so I think I got that book from him. I'm I'm nowhere near as prolific as what he he was able will accomplish in a short life. But you know, I think, tech, there's a huge opportunity in technology right now. It's a scary landscape, because things are going to change very, very quickly. But what we'll be able to do with with small teams and some of these emerging AI technologies, I think is, is, it's going to be very much like how the internet changed so many industries, but to a power of 100. It's, I think everybody's job will be different in the matter of next couple of years. And so looking at opportunities to apply that technology, really, in any industry, is what's got me excited right now.
Mark D. Williams<br> 55:41
Interesting. And how does your How does your team react to it? I mean, those around you. He's got a smile on his eyes, if you're not watching to it into YouTube it at 5056 minutes, and you're gonna see a twinkle in his eye. Yeah,
Speaker 1 55:54
I think if, if, if any of my employees hear me say something, like, let me show you something. They're like, I don't have time. Because I get so excited about this stuff. They're there. They see the power of it. I think they get excited about it. But they've got jobs to do and and they they're doing things in traditional fashions, but I think they're probably as as excited as I am on some of these things. But, but busy. So yeah, that you know, I, I'm very passionate about it. If you give me a second talk about AI and what I saw on Twitter last night, it'll be a long conversation. Well, let's
Mark D. Williams<br> 56:37
start with that off script or anything about it? How are x? Right? X? Yeah, how? I guess one last question here, as we kind of wrap up between your first episode and this episode. You know, I meant to ask it previously, as you're a fourth generational, you know, builder entrepreneur, and your kids are getting older and asking this question, even for myself and hearing your response? Because you have to deal with it before I do. Do your kids seem to have any sort of interest? It's too early to tell you express that early on you were you knew you were pretty interested? Where do you think the kind of the family legacy is? And do you feel any pressure to continue? How are you and your wife can handle kind of that, you know, as you kind of fade out over your career over the last, you know, however long you plan on building? Have you thought about what that looks like from a generational standpoint?
Speaker 1 57:25
Yeah, you boy, I think probably any parent, entrepreneur hopes their children have an interest in what they do, I think what we do is such a blessing, it's such a wonderful business, even with all challenges and complexities. Building is, is just, it's the creative outlet and financial opportunity, it's a great business. So I hope my children are interested, you know, like my parents, I'm not going to push them, if they decide it's something they want to do, then fantastic love for them to get involved. I'm very pro entrepreneurship, I hope that, that they choose to start businesses and, and, and be their own boss, rather than that you're just going and taking a job, because I see huge benefits in that in so many ways. But you know, my oldest 13 We'll see. Yeah, that's, that's a long way from now it feels like to win, she might want to be involved. My youngest at eight. Oh, that's, that's, that's a ways down the road. So we'll see. Good news is I have got such a great team, that we've got employees that are so dedicated, that my, my, my business family is already involved. And, and, and running with it. And and, and taking it over bit by bit. As much as I'll let go of the reins. So it's, we it's already kind of transitioning a little bit to just the team as they take over aspects.
Mark D. Williams<br> 59:00
Well, that's great. I'm excited to see where it goes. I mean, we're thinking I'm 43 I don't even know how are you saying me a child?
Speaker 1 59:08
I'm 50 on Friday, are you really I am Oh my word.
Mark D. Williams<br> 59:12
Now look, you're 50 Well, then that actually I'm gonna ask this question. I thought, like you said, Who wouldn't want their kids to continue the business? I don't, I don't want to still be building when I'm 65 or 70. I don't. That's so many other interests to do, and my kids are younger than your soil will be and older. But I guess my my thought and that is me. Do you, you know, for the next evolution of what you know, maybe you don't know either. But at some point, you're gonna start thinking about it. I mean, if your kids don't say, you know, fast forward here 10 years, you know, 15 years, you know, you're gonna be you know, 65 and maybe dude one it's Staveley. I mean you love it. I'm just kind of curious. I've kind of joked like, you know, at time my daughter is old enough and she'd be an amazing honor. So she would be just awesome at it's not that it's just like do I want to keep on? You know, it's a it's a lot of energy and it's a lot of effort. Not everything is a As great as you know, we probably showcase it in our websites and Instagram and everything else. And it's very difficult industry very rewarding. But that's my own kind of opinion on it. How would you navigate that? If she does show interest in you're going to stay on longer?
Speaker 1 1:00:15
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if my kids show interest that that would be a huge motivator and in staying involved. I know so many builders that are approaching their late 80s, that are still building homes because they love it. At this point, I don't know if I've got that in it. But if my kids are, are alongside me, then absolutely, that would be a huge motivator.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:00:39
I think it would be too I think it's too far away for me to get even sick about that. I just think about man, it's just, it's it's not it's not easy. You know, we're 23 in particular was, in some ways, a difficult year. But I'm also really excited. It's funny how sometimes the flip side of the coin is like, it's very difficult. But you're also very optimistic about, we know what the future thinks. I don't know how you could be a builder not be optimistic, frankly.
Speaker 1 1:01:01
Yeah, I think you have to be I think that's our DNA, right. But there's seasons in every business. And I don't know what season we're in right now. It feels like maybe fall, and we were coming off some pretty great years. And I think everybody in the industry that I've talked to, for years have said idea, I kind of would like it to slow down a little bit because it's a fire hose for the last few years. I had that conversation with people eight years ago, and it hasn't slowed down. And just when you think that something like COVID is really going to slow it down, it doesn't it does the opposite. So I am the worst. prognosticator out there. So we'll see what happens. Might not be fall maybe. Maybe we're just maybe early spring. We'll see. We'll see.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:01:48
Well, thank you very much for coming on. Everything will be in the show notes. And that's all from the curious builder podcast for today. Thanks for joining. Thank you
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