Episode 81 - Enhancing Home Building Efficiency with Daran Wastchak: Navigating Codes and Energy Solutions
Episode #81 | Daran Wastchak | Navigating Codes and Energy Solutions
In this episode of The Curious Builder, Mark Williams chats with energy efficiency guru Daran Wastchak about mastering the 2021 building code with multiple compliance pathways and the transformative power of Adaptive software for builders. They also explore the importance of open communication with code officials and share personal stories to highlight how proper building practices result in long-lasting, energy-efficient homes. Mark throws in some laughs and nostalgia, making this episode both informative and entertaining.
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About Learning Edge LLC.
Daran Wastchak is the President of Learning Edge, LLC, a firm based in Phoenix, Arizona which specializes in residential energy efficiency training and building science consulting for municipal building code officials, architects, engineers, home builders, trade contractors, home energy raters, residential home inspectors, and REALTORS.
Over the past 25 years, Daran has helped solve warranty issues for hundreds of homes that did not properly heat or cool, had high utility bills, poor indoor air quality, and/or were uncomfortable. Additionally, he has trained thousands of individuals on the basics of building science, energy efficiency for buildings, energy efficiency programs, and the international energy conservation codes.
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Mark Williams:
This episode is brought to you by Pella Northland for 19 and a half years I've been building homes, and 95% of all my homes have used Pella windows. I couldn't be happier to call them a partner in our builds and our remodels. Whether you're an architect, a designer, or a remodeler, I'd highly recommend Pella windows. They can fit old homes, new homes, reclaimed, commercial, and really everything in between. Pella is a company that we trust and that we recommend to our clients. Additionally in management, Peter and Ed have just been absolutely fantastic people to work with as well as mentors to me personally. So when it comes time to look for a window, I'd highly recommend Pella windows. Find more@pelanortland.com also, if you're interested, you can hear episode one where I interview Peter and Ed together for a great lesson on business and Pella windows.
Mark Williams [00:00:46]:
Today on the podcast, we had Darren Washak on from Arizona. He has a company called Learning Edge, and what's really fascinating is just to hear about all the education that has gone into his platform. So whether you do on demand or whether you're going to seminars, but it's basically educating code officials, builders, architects, real estate agents, all with the idea that the better we understand how to build our homes and construct our homes, the longer these can last. And we talk a lot about how the average family will live in a home, let's say twelve years. And if you live in four or five homes, you are impacting an exponential amount of people. So as builders, as people that are in our trades building quality homes, we want to be thoughtful not only for our clients, but really the legacy that that home will have. So without further ado, here's Darren. Welcome to the Curious Builder podcast.
Mark Williams [00:01:40]:
I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today I'm joined with Darren Wasjack from leading Edge LLC out of Phoenix, Arizona. Welcome, Darren.
Daran Wastchak [00:01:47]:
Hey, thank you for having me, Mark.
Mark Williams [00:01:49]:
So we played a little scheduling tag here over the last couple months to get you on, kind of fascinated about what you're doing for our industry terms of education. Why don't you give us a little intro of how you got started and a little bit about yourself. You've been in the industry a long time.
Daran Wastchak [00:02:02]:
Yeah. I started working with home builders on energy efficiency when the EPA rolled out the Energy Star for Homes program, the little blue cube most people are familiar with on their refrigerator, their dishwasher, well, it goes on to entire homes. And I started working in that program with the EPA in 1996, and I was at Arizona State University at the time, but we had grant money that eventually ran out. And when the money from EPA ran out, I moved everything over to the private sector and started my company, my own company, Doctor Washczek, LLC. At the time and again, we helped builders to build more energy efficient homes that were enrolled in the Energy Star for Homes program. And in 2018, I sold that company to three of my employees. That was always my goal, to eventually sell and have my employees continue on the work that we were doing so they could be entrepreneurs. So I was excited for them to take over where I left off.
Daran Wastchak [00:03:03]:
That company is still going strong. They changed the name, of course, but they're still going strong, doing well. And I moved over to focusing on working with utility companies, on training home builders, architects, engineers, building code inspectors, on how to build energy efficient homes that meet the building code, the international energy Conservation code. So that's where I've been spending my time lately, mostly doing webinars online or on demand classes. I don't do much in person anymore, Mark, although I do do that several times a year. Most of it is online on demand for learning edge.
Mark Williams [00:03:40]:
Interesting. Well, let's go back. You obviously must have had quite the beginning. I mean, are you a son of a builder? I mean, how did you even find any interest in the trades and then building energy efficient homes to begin with?
Daran Wastchak [00:03:51]:
Well, that's a great question. And I never thought I would end up being an entrepreneur. It was one of those things that my dad was. So I had it kind of in, in my blood, if you will, because of my, of what my dad did. But there was an opportunity when I was working at the university, and of course the builders were getting the energy star support for free when it was part of the EPA. But when I went to the builders, and we're talking some of the largest production builders in the country, you know, Doctor Horton, Beezer Homes, Lennar Homes, it was some of the biggest in the country. And I said to them, look, grant money's running away, but if you're willing to pay something, and I put a dollar and cents to it, a very low amount, actually. I said, if you're willing to pay for this, we can keep doing this for you.
Daran Wastchak [00:04:41]:
And they said, yeah, sure. Cause it wasn't much money, Mark, for them to get energy star back then. And that's how I got it started. I basically moved from the private, the public sector over to the private sector. I had revenue. I did a little extra work on the side, hired my first employee, and we were off and running at the height just before the great recession in 2006. Seven, eight. And it started in zero.
Daran Wastchak [00:05:05]:
Six for us when the home builders started tapering off. I had 27 employees. But when the great recession hit in full force, I went all the way down to five employees. And my one, I think, biggest point of gratitude and appreciation is that I was able to survive the great recession. My company didn't go out of business, but it was because of lessons I had learned by previous failures that I had had. That's how I actually got it through just learning and experience. That's how I was able to survive the great Recession, grow it back to about 15 employees when I then sold it to three of my key employees.
Mark Williams [00:05:48]:
Interesting. And what was it about energy ratings or energy efficiency or building science that, like, why that? It seems like you would have a lot of interest in a lot of different things, but why that specific topic?
Daran Wastchak [00:06:00]:
Well, so that was serendipitous somewhat because I had graduated from the ASU School of Construction, the Del Webb School of Construction. So my background was in construction, and I was doing commercial construction before I was brought back to ASU to work as a graduate assistant on this thing called Energy Star. So it was because of a connection at the university that I was brought back to ASU to work on this grant. And that's basically I got into it. I was running the grant for two professors. They were kind of doing their own teaching thing, and I was left to run the program even to, again, move it from the university, the private sector. So choosing. I didn't choose energy efficiency.
Daran Wastchak [00:06:43]:
I didn't choose residential. I was really going down a commercial path of being a project manager in the commercial industry. So it was serendipitous that that's where I went. And now, again, I'm very, very well known and has spent a lot of time in the industry on energy efficiency for homes.
Mark Williams [00:07:01]:
How. I mean, holistically speaking, where has energy efficiency come from? Where are we today, and where do you see it going? Is a huge question, but I think you're kind of an appropriate place to answer it, because obviously, up in Minnesota, I've been dealing with different various forms of energy star. I never really got into the lead ratings and things like that, but we have a green path initiative, which a lot of local builders spend a lot of time working on in our climate alone. In Minnesota, I think we. I know for sure, at scale, we build more energy efficient homes than any other place in the country at scale. Just because our building comb and our climate is so we've had to because of how cold it gets here. And so I know, you know, maybe, you know, some of that, maybe you don't. It'd be curious to hear an outsider's perspective.
Mark Williams [00:07:49]:
You know, is that just Minnesota bravado or down in Arizona? You know, do you guys hear about our tales of wonder of Minnesota builders? But why don't you, you know, to the, I'm really more curious to see, like, what was it like back in the seventies and eighties and how did these companies even decide, oh, hey, we need to be thinking about energy. And then as it went through the nineties and two thousands and has morphed into what it is today, it seems in some ways really slow. And in some ways it seems like from a marketing standpoint, it's really advanced. And I'd just be curious to get your take on it.
Daran Wastchak [00:08:21]:
Yeah, you've asked a mammoth question there with a lot to it, Mark, so let me unpack what I can for you. First of all, if you don't mind, I would like to just share my website because I have a lot of information on my website, learningedgellc.com, because a lot of the questions that you asked, I have it in the classes that I teach. And again, they're all on demand. They're all either a live webinar and on demand. And that's where a lot of the information you can pick up to answer your question, because I do cover that. The energy efficiency for residential, Mark, in reality, it started in the seventies with the oil embargoes. So when the price of energy went through the roof in the early seventies and again in the late seventies, I tell the story in my classes that you and I might remember, some people may not remember, but in the late 1970s, Jimmy Carter with his yellow cardigan sweater, getting on in the Oval Office presentation for the country, saying, hey, everybody, let's turn up the thermostat in the wintertime because we're having an oil shortage and we don't have enough. So we all got to dig in.
Daran Wastchak [00:09:34]:
And so during the day, turn that thermostat up, wear an extra sweater. And that's because we were trying to figure out how to deal with this, with the cost of energy now being a real thing, an economic factor. And so that's when we started in earnest, putting insulation in homes. Up until that point, it was kind of a moderate thing, but in the seventies it became necessary. And then home builders, they were adding insulation in and they were able to get more money for it. Prior to that, it was like, wow, utility bills are so cheap. I'll just run my furnace a lot more. Right.
Mark Williams [00:10:05]:
Was that the same. Was that the same time that they instituted the national speed limits of like 55 miles an hour? I always remember hearing in school, like, 55 was the most economical speed, um, to travel because it balanced, uh, speed with the use of oil. Is that the same time frame?
Daran Wastchak [00:10:24]:
I. Yes, I believe that was. I'm. That's not my area of.
Mark Williams [00:10:28]:
But I just. When you said oil embargo, it seemed like that would line up right about the same time.
Daran Wastchak [00:10:33]:
Yeah, I think you're right about that. So it does line up on, on that particular item. So a good reminder on that one. And, um, so that's where kind of energy efficiency got started. And then with the insulation piece. And then in the 1980s, it was about building tighter envelopes. It was a slow. The home energy rating industry was started at the end of the 1980s, early 1990s.
Daran Wastchak [00:10:56]:
The first energy efficiency standards for air conditionings and air conditioners and heaters, sear rating and HSPF and afue for efficiency of heating and cooling equipment. That all started at the beginning of the 1990s and through the energy, the EPAC, they call it Energy Policy act, and that's where that stuff started. So an energy star was started at the beginning of the 1990s as well. I started working at Energy Star in 1996. The energy Star for Homes program was started in the middle of 1995, and it was a slow ramp up on energy Star. But energy Star, Mark, is what really drove energy efficiency on a national basis, because now EPA put together a package of energy efficiency parts and pieces, and a builder that subscribed to building that way was going to build a more energy efficient home. They were going to get the EPA stamp of approval. There was going to be third party verification, which is the work I did as a home energy rater.
Daran Wastchak [00:11:58]:
And they got the marketing spiff because they got the energy Star logo. They could now tell the world, it's not me saying I build an energy efficient home, it's the EPA verifying and giving you confidence as a buyer, a homebuyer, that I build an energy efficient home. And so that's kind of the marketing progression and how things progressed.
Mark Williams [00:12:18]:
How have you. So I think I saw on your website, it was like, you've rated over 67,000 homes. You know, I'm sure that continually updates, but that's just a monstrous amount of homes. What have you seen as kind of boots on the ground? I mean, have builders always sort of fought the change. Are we always sort of behind wherever our society is going? Like, I remember, you know, like up and, you know, I mean, you've got air source heat pumps, you've got geothermal. That was the latest and greatest thing. You've got solar panel, which is having its day, wind power. It just seems like.
Mark Williams [00:12:50]:
I know, and it's not that I'm not interested in these things, but there's a part of me that I'm glad for things that change because we have to be energy efficient and we can be better at it, and we are, and we certainly have gotten there. But then there's also the free market approach, which is always sort of challenging because, you know, I operate in the luxury market and there I keep on bringing. A lot of times people just assume, oh, mark, you must build a lot of homes with geothermal or, you know, heat pumps and solar. I've done zero, not one in 20 years. I brought it up a lot, but no one wants to really. I call them greenback greenies versus, you know, the, you know, for lack of a better term, you know, green. And I'm certainly passionate about it. But as someone who's an entrepreneur, I have to do what my clients want.
Mark Williams [00:13:36]:
And so there's only in, obviously, the code. I do have to obviously adhere to the code. But again, if we're in the luxury market, our home is going to beat code anyway. So code is kind of like the lowest minimum standard. Like, I'm not really even thinking about code because we're, you know, above it. And I do think there is a place for it. I guess my. And so I understand a little bit of how policy can be like a goal of to do something.
Mark Williams [00:13:59]:
How have you seen builders sort of fight that? And from your side of the table, as you're trying to educate them, how do you get these two sides to sort of align? Because we could all say that, yes, energy efficiency would be better, but there's also the other side of the coin, which is, well, at what cost? And things change. So I'm just kind of curious for your perspective. You'd have a unique one.
Daran Wastchak [00:14:23]:
Yeah. And, you know, there's actually a pretty good answer to that because when I first walked into builders to talk about energy Star, they thought I was going to be making them change their walls to straw bale or something exotic. That's what they thought. I was going to make them take half their windows out and just do crazy things. And that's not what the energy star program was at the time. It's not what it is today. EPA works with the industry to develop a standard that the industry says we can achieve that. It's pushing the envelope, but we can achieve that most of the time.
Daran Wastchak [00:15:02]:
Mark, to divide the home building industry kind of in two pieces, when I'm working with custom projects, I say, let's build as energy efficient as we can, but we don't need an energy star label for a custom home. And that was generally, that is, is, and has generally been the line. But for production builders, they're always looking for an edge. And what I love about, and here I am in the Phoenix market. All the major production builders are here. They're all competing with each other to sell homes. And so I love the fact that I would get one builder to do energy star, and then all of a sudden, the other builders would be looking at the neighborhood across the street and go, hey, wait a second. I'm losing home sales to Beezer because they're doing an energy star home.
Daran Wastchak [00:15:47]:
Then they would say, well, how do I get that? And it's when there was a story I heard many years ago, when a sales agent hears, I think it's like seven times, they get asked for something, they know that's something they have to be offering. So that was kind of the mic. That's the number that I was told. When seven people asked for something, they call the purchasing manager and goes, we need to have this because we're losing sales.
Mark Williams [00:16:11]:
Now, see, I like that because that's free market that, Mark, your market is telling you you need.
Daran Wastchak [00:16:15]:
Exactly.
Mark Williams [00:16:16]:
Also, the other builders are saying, hey, if that is truly a sales thing, then, yeah, I agree 100%.
Daran Wastchak [00:16:23]:
Thats the point of me, Mark, youre absolutely right. I wanted to give you the good news, and that is that energy Star was driven completely by market forces. What was amazing in Phoenix because we had a real head start compared to the rest of the country in Phoenix, because I was doing energy star with EPA as a kickoff, as a pilot back in 96, and the energy Star program didn't really start to take off in a big way until 2001, about five years later, is where it really started to ramp up. But we were doing energy Star in Phoenix based on total market forces. I would go into a builder and go, hey, Lennar, Beezer's doing this. What do you think? Well, we got to be doing it, too. I would play them off of each other ego, because the builders, when a big builder does it, all the others want to follow. It's Fomo.
Daran Wastchak [00:17:10]:
They don't want to be left out. But we grew energy Star to probably about 5000 homes a year. Energy Star homes a year in Phoenix without any incentives from the utility companies. But in 2000 and roughly 2006, it was ten years without any incentives. In 2006, the utilities started putting in, hey, we'll give you $200 a home if you do energy star. Well, now more builders start piling in by choice. Energy Star's voluntary, Mark, to your point, it's a market driven. And by the way, the success of Energy Star is because the builders promote that they are energy star.
Daran Wastchak [00:17:52]:
They put the blue cube on their ads and in the radio and on tv. And the EPA has almost no budget for marketing. It's the people that are embracing energy star, be that whirlpool, be that Panasonic or Beezer homes. They're embracing this label and then saying, hey, we're this, we're energy star. We're energy star. So the EPA is literally six people back in Washington with a budget of about maybe five to $10 million, which means they have contractors that help support them. But the energy Star program is a wonderfully market based program. Is voluntary that you choose to do that.
Daran Wastchak [00:18:35]:
So that's the good news story of what has propelled the builders to actually do this. On the custom side, Mark, build an energy efficient home. It doesn't have to be energy star. Just build it as efficient as you can. Is really that separation of the market.
Mark Williams [00:18:50]:
I mean, we've seen some huge advantages in terms of market, but a lot of it is awareness and education. And so I'm really interested. I think you just don't know what you don't know. And I think one thing that social media has done so well over the last five, six years, especially you get the people that are, you know, explaining stuff on YouTube or these longer format videos. And I can't say that I'm a huge consumer of those just because my hands probably too short. But I mean, you know, I think for me, like, there's been a huge movement up in our market for external insulation. And, you know, as the products become more and more available and, you know, we use like a zip r six, which is six inches or, sorry, an r six to the outside envelope up here in our climate. And I want, that's kind of my standard.
Mark Williams [00:19:31]:
And it just makes a lot of sense to me. And this is where I've struggled in the past, is, you know, as we do a lot of cost plus homes, uh, in our market for the luxury market, I wore a little bit with what is sort of Mark Williams custom home standard versus what is an upgrade. And previously, because I was passionate about it, I tried to break it down into dollars. Like, hey, for $10,000 more, you get this, or for 20,000, you get this. And when I did that, almost nobody said yes. And now I don't even really ask them. I have to make the decision as a market. Like, is that something I just sell? But I'm not giving a line item to reduce it.
Mark Williams [00:20:08]:
Like, I'm going to build the home that way. But, you know, and I think you have to be careful with that. And I think everyone might have a different opinion about how they do that. That one I'm particularly passionate about. And I, I think the best analogy I've ever gotten is I mountaineer, and I like to ski in the wintertime. Well, if you ski with just a gore Tex shell but no insulating layer, you're going to stop the wind, but you're going to freeze, you're going to be cold. And if you ski with a down jacket but no windbreaker, you are also going to freeze because the wind is going to cut right through that down jacket. You have to wear the combination, you have to wear the shell to stop the wind and need the insulation to keep in your body warmth.
Mark Williams [00:20:46]:
That just, like, makes sense to me. Like, oh, okay, well, people have been wearing jackets since the beginning of time, since, you know, neanderthals, you know, killed a woolly mammoth and threw the skin over them. Um, and, uh, you know, I guess in this analogy, we need two, uh, two wooly mammoths to make it work. But anyway, you get the point. Like, it's when you say like, or like somebody else said, you know, if you don't keep your home tight, it's like having a jacket, but then just unzipping it and going skiing down the hill again. It doesn't matter how great your technology is, the air is just infiltrating your body. And so, like, for me, that has really helped just make it really simple and not only explain it to the client, but honestly, just going back to, like, that's a decision that I'm making as the custom home builder to provide my home to be the best for my client. And someone recently said that, you know, we often think we're designing for one client, and that's true.
Mark Williams [00:21:35]:
But in the US, I think, and I should read, I should look this at. So I don't take this as gospel, but I want to say that, like, the average home is lived in for, like, seven years. And that was a quote I'd heard a number of years ago, I don't know what it is today. The point is, is that home is sold and resold a number of times. And if the average family size, let's just say it's four, I mean, think of how many people you're impacting over the life of that home, not only their energy costs, but their comfort. And so, like, I, for my own reputation, integrity, like a, I want to build a good home, but you're also building a very valuable asset, and it's something that's going to protect them down the road. Like now when we go and remodel a home that's like in the 1920s and there's like curled up newspapers of like World War one or like, you know, whatever era newspaper there are on the wall, you're like, wow, that was your insulation. And that was like, you know, that person was actually really thinking it's advanced back then.
Mark Williams [00:22:26]:
You're like, wow, we've come a long way.
Daran Wastchak [00:22:28]:
Well, and you know what, your point, first of all, your analogy of the skiing in the jacket, we talk in terms of thermal and air barrier is what we talk about. And that's built into the code. Your analogy is great because you're communicating to your customer the importance. And whenever I talk about building homes, I actually do talk about exactly the points you're making. And that is that when we build this home, how long do you think this home is going to be around? And I'll get people say, I don't know, 30 years. And I go, I hope it's going to last the duration of a mortgage, 30 years. But at 50, I mean, I think homes need to be, they're going to be built for 100 plus years. They're going to be around for a while.
Daran Wastchak [00:23:08]:
And if you insulate those walls and you insulate them wrong, because walls, once you close up a wall, you're not going back in there unless there's real reason to, unless it's a historic value, unless there's a real reason to keep that building. Otherwise, we're going to tear that building down and start all over again. But you're rarely going to open up those walls. People are going to live with what is there. So I talk about getting ducts tight and getting insulation right. Windows, you'll change out over time, perhaps, but the actual structure itself, build it. So it's going to be around for that hundred year timeframe. Because, Mark, like you said, that homeowner, or homeowners, over time, they're going to have live with that energy efficiency, or lack thereof, for that duration of time.
Daran Wastchak [00:23:53]:
So your perspective and what you're thinking about makes a ton of sense.
Mark Williams [00:23:57]:
I just googled. I just googled what the average lifespan of a home is per person. Do you want to take a guess at what it is?
Daran Wastchak [00:24:04]:
Five years?
Mark Williams [00:24:05]:
It's 12.3. But obviously. But I'm guessing it depends. Obviously. Totally. Plus, if you're. If the people that are listening to this are mostly builders, I guarantee they grew up or have a high. I bet their number is way higher.
Mark Williams [00:24:17]:
I think my parents were builders. I think they're on home number 20 and they're 73, and they lived in one home for twelve and a half years. So I think the builders in the world and remodelers and those related to construction are crushing that number. But anyway, that was my initial Google response. Sorry, I want to make sure I wasn't putting out false information.
Daran Wastchak [00:24:34]:
No, that's a good one. And mark, let me go back to a point that you just raised and a point you raised at the very beginning. One. Minnesota is definitely known for building energy efficient homes. And you guys have always been pushing the envelope because you were in such a cold climate, right. With extremes. In fact, your climate, cold climates are much more extreme than Phoenix. Now, last year we had 319 degree days.
Daran Wastchak [00:25:01]:
Okay, last summer. And you might be going, oh my gosh, that's extreme. That's really bad. But one of the things I point out, I'm like, you know what, we got it pretty good in Phoenix. You go up to Minnesota, that's bad up there. And you might be going, huh. Well, think of it in this way. It's about what drives heat through a wall or assembly.
Daran Wastchak [00:25:22]:
A wall assembly is temperature difference. So a really hot day in Phoenix, call it 115 degrees. Okay. And then we like to keep it at, say, 75 inside. So 752-5354 degree temperature difference on a really hot day in Phoenix, 115 to 875. Okay. 40 degree delta t. You guys are probably like to keep your house around 6870 in the winter time, somewhere in that range.
Daran Wastchak [00:25:48]:
And it can get to be zero at nighttime every now and then.
Mark Williams [00:25:52]:
No, that's way more often than. So you'll get -20 generous. Yeah, you're gonna get. You're getting at -200 you hit a lot. Actually. This last winter was pretty pathetic. It was pretty warm. But I see where you're going with this.
Daran Wastchak [00:26:02]:
The difference, the delta t of 70, let's just call it zero. I know it gets worse. That's a twice the delta t. So heat's wanting to leave your house, leave your house in the wintertime at twice the speed as it wants to enter my house in Phoenix. So you guys live in a much harsher condition in Minnesota than I do in Phoenix. Now, again, it's hard to tell somebody that in the middle of July when it's 119. But, you know, there's. There's special things that you do in Minnesota that we don't have to deal with.
Daran Wastchak [00:26:34]:
You guys have more moisture to deal with. What's dry here. You guys have bigger delta t's. You guys have snow, which then puts moisture on your building that can then find its way into your building. You guys also have. You guys are closed up more in the wintertime, which is why the latest version of the code requires HRV and ERV ventilation. If you're in the 21 version of the code and you're in Minnesota, climate zones seven and eight, anyway, you guys have climate zone seven. I think in parts of Minnesota, you guys are going to end up having to.
Daran Wastchak [00:27:06]:
You have to put on a air.
Mark Williams [00:27:08]:
To air exchange unit. I think we've been using air to air exchanges for 15 years, I bet a long time. Well, before it was code, probably because they had to. I mean, every builder that seen big temperature swings, you know, I remember seeing remodels where, you know, people would put fiberglass insulation next to block walls with poly. And it's like a rainforest. And like, the amount of mold that was generated. Now, what was interesting, I had heard that that was actually a code way back in the eighties and nineties or whenever it was. And so they actually forced you to do the wrong thing.
Mark Williams [00:27:39]:
And it's kind of funny that I think one thing that builders have a very high degree of figure it out factor, and I think one thing that scares all of us. I mean, it definitely sobers you up when you. Every time I would go to, like, a code class, you know, my poor, my poor project manager and my framers would be like, oh. Because I call them with like 30 questions, like, we're doing this wrong, we're doing that wrong, we gotta do this. And they're like, you know, it's kind of that. You know, when you get the education, you're like, whoa. Like, this is serious. And water infiltration, I think, is every builder's probably biggest concerned.
Mark Williams [00:28:12]:
At least it's mine. Absolutely. And you're right. Our humidity up here is terrible. Um, you know, it's funny. People love to joke about our cold, but actually the cold is pretty easy. The humidity from a building a science standpoint, I think, is a way bigger factor. I had heard somewhere once that, um, actually we sort of need or appreciate the cold, drier airs because that moist air, if it does get in your air cavity, the, the cold, dry air will actually dry it out.
Mark Williams [00:28:38]:
And sometimes if you have, let's say, a winter that's not very cold, you actually miss out on some of that drying cycle. And as the homes get tighter and tighter, I mean, obviously the older builders, and when I say older, I guess maybe just old in thinking because you could be older and be more thoughtful about this. But there are people that have been very resistant to hrvs and to making it tighter. And they'd always say, like, oh, man, the old homes, they had nothing and their homes are fine. Well, I think it's pretty well known at this point that if you're, you know, if you're living in a swiss cheese of a house with air flowing in, like, you're not going to have any issues. That's true. But you're also not going to have any heat and it's definitely not energy efficient. And I'm not here to argue whether, what's right or wrong because people can have their free choice.
Mark Williams [00:29:19]:
If they want to spend a lot more money and have zero peace of mind, that's a choice. Unfortunately, that's a choice that the code is not going to allow you to even make anymore. It'd be no different than trying to drive a, you know, a car that's not efficient on the roads. I mean, if the EPA pulls you over, we don't really have them. Or if they do, it's not big. They pull off the old cars off the road. Their carburetors aren't, you know, they're putting smog or whatever in the air. Yeah, there are rules that we have to adhere to whether we like them or not.
Mark Williams [00:29:43]:
A sort of, it is for the common good to the best of their ability. And everyone makes mistakes. I think it's easy to, you know, shoo shoo policies and say, oh, I don't like that, or that's really dumb. But like, to your point, like, if I'm only thinking from a custom home builders lens, that's a pretty narrow thought. And if you're only looking at a, you know, a national production builder, that's an, I mean, you kind of, I feel sort of bad for legislation. They've got to come up with some stuff that sort of hits. That's the majority of what's happening. And it gets really, I'm sure.
Mark Williams [00:30:11]:
I mean, I could never last in those sessions. I would pull my eyebrows out. This episode is brought to you by Helmuth and Johnson, a top Minnesota law firm ranging from individuals to emerging startups to multinational Fortune 500 companies focusing on transactional law, litigation and appeals. Helmuth and Johnson attorneys are leaders in their field. David Helmuth and Chad Johnson joined forces 30 years ago in 1994 with the goal of creating a premier law firm capable of handling complex and challenging cases efficiently and effectively. Today, Helmuth and Johnson rank among the top 15 largest law firms in Minnesota, with more than 70 twin city lawyers serving clients in more than 30 legal practice areas. They offer a full suite of legal services to clients without sacrificing their original commitment to providing responsible and affordable legal representation. To learn more, go to their website, www.hjlawfirm.com.
Daran Wastchak [00:31:01]:
This episode is brought to you by adaptive, the software for builders that automates draws budgets and bookkeeping with AI. For over a year now, I've been partnered with adaptive, and they've just been an amazing game changer in terms of efficiency in our time and all our bookkeeping. When from the time we get an invoice, we import it into their system, the AI codes it, cost, codes it, job, codes it, all we have to do is review it, pass it through the people internally in the office, all digitally, and then it gets approved and paid all by Ach. It's becoming extremely fast and saving us countless hours a day and a week. When it comes to draws, all of our budgets now are set in adaptive as well. So now when we cost code against the draws, we can do our change orders. And then with a click of a button, we can submit these draws to our title companies or to our homeowners for faster payment. If you're looking to save time, and if you're looking to be accurate, I highly recommend adaptive.
Daran Wastchak [00:31:53]:
Additionally, if you'd like to listen to one of their founders share the story of adaptive, you can listen to episode number 15 on the Curious Builder podcast.
Daran Wastchak [00:32:00]:
Yeah, and Mark, the truth is that in my codes class that I teach on the 2021 code I talk about, there's nine ways to comply with the building code. There's nine pathways through the building code, all right? And there's more than nine. And not all nine are available in every jurisdiction. But the code can be onerous. But there's also a lot of flexibility built into the code. And the reason I teach my class is so that not only the builders and the architects know that there are pathways that you can choose to go through the code that are going to be a lot less painful if you choose to do those. But I also tell the code officials that your code that you're enforcing has these pathway options. And when they come to the plan counter and they ask you, hey, what should I do? What path should I, I want you to direct them through the path that's going to give them the least resistance and then get you a home to comply because you, as a building official, you can't sign off unless it meets your building code that you've adopted.
Daran Wastchak [00:32:59]:
So you don't want to make it harder for them. You don't want to see them going through the real struggle pathway. You want it to be the way that's most economical, most efficient, because they're going to be more successful with meeting that code requirements. But, Mark, there is flexibility in the code, and that's what I try to share with homebuilders, architects, engineers, you know, code officials, anybody that is of needing to know the basics of building science, and then how do we build these things to meet the code.
Mark Williams [00:33:30]:
I think the biggest mistake just hearing you talk about it, that I made as someone who's a very collaborative person, especially at this point in my life, I look back when I first started, I project managed my own homes. I did. I was a team of one, a team of two for many years. And so it was me meeting the project or, sorry, the code officials, and I was never adversarial or rude or anything like that, but I definitely was not. I was more like, I think a lot of people who start businesses, I think the reason you start a business or an entrepreneur is because you don't really want to fly with the rest of the flock. You kind of want to do your own thing. And I think I would look at a code official a lot. Like, I would look at a police officer when I'm speeding a little bit.
Mark Williams [00:34:10]:
Like, I want to get where I want to go, and I want to go there a little bit faster, and I got to slow down and. But, you know, like, you know, what's the slogan that most to protect and to serve. Like, policemen are not bad. Like, they're good and they're there to help. Like, I have little kids now, and, you know, to combat what you see, you know, or what they may be exposed to. Like, no. Like, there's a reason we have police officers, we have firemen for these reasons. And, like, the reason I'm going down this long road of explaining is it just dawn on me that I was very slow to sort of embrace the, the code officials and, and you can have some real turkeys.
Mark Williams [00:34:43]:
There was one in particular here that is, it was notorious for being just terrible to work with. But I think, you know, there's always going to be exceptions to the rule. I'm sure there's builders out there that aren't great to work with either. But the point is, is like, bring in the code official and tell them, hey, this is what I'm trying to do. This is, you know, they see a lot more homes than we do. Just like you've, you know, you've tested 67,000 homes. That's way more homes than I'll ever touch in my entire lifetime. Like, you know, they are experts in some ways, and if nothing else, just tell them what you're trying to achieve and they're going to be much more open to either help you or to even really expand or give you resources.
Mark Williams [00:35:17]:
And I think if we can get rid of this combative nature between a code official and the framing crews and the mechanical crews, I mean, the ones that see each other over and over and build a relationship, obviously it's just as much better. And I wish I had realized that earlier on my career. Now, you know, I never see a code official because my team is handling it, but, and I don't know, what's, what's your, what's your thought on, on that?
Daran Wastchak [00:35:40]:
Well, Mark, I mean, the number one thing, this goes in all aspects of life beyond just what you and I do in our daily work. It's just open communication. Because, you know, the truth is, is that other people, if you try and put yourself in their shoes of what they're trying to accomplish and you rely on them and you ask them to help you, and if somebody's got something saying something wrong or that you know it's wrong, well, you know, you don't turn around and call them out on it and make them, you know, embarrass them. What you do is you say, I remember you said this, I did a little more research. I wanted to share this with you. I went and I talked to Darren at learning edge, and he shared me with me this. And I have people calling me all the time, by the way, mark, saying, hey, I'm dealing with this. I get builders, I get code officials because they want to get it right.
Daran Wastchak [00:36:28]:
They're getting one side of the story. But if you then share with them, hey, so from this credible source I found, this is what the code interpretation is for this. It is a little different than what you're saying, and I respect what you're saying, but what do you think of this? Ask it in a question. Right. So that's all communication skills, Mark, as you know. And you've, you know, some of us learn it the hard way by having bloody, you know, foreheads of doing it wrong for so long before we finally wise up. Those that are smart, anybody that's young, that's listening to this, just getting into the industry, listen to what others have to share in the way of advice. Take building code officials that you think are credible, that you think really do, are knowledgeable and say, how can you help me to be successful with what I'm trying to do? And I think then you're going to have less of an adversarial relationship.
Daran Wastchak [00:37:17]:
But communication is paramount, just absolutely essential. But, you know, don't fight just to fight. Arm yourself with quality information that you can then share with them nothing. Shove down their throat. Share with them in a collaboration.
Mark Williams [00:37:34]:
That's going to be my line tonight when my boys are fighting. Share, don't shove. That's like a new. That's like a new building tagline. What? When you are, you know, you mentioned a number of different people that seek you out. So maybe we've talked more about codes here than I was maybe planning on, which is still fine because I think it's very relatable. But from an educator standpoint, what have you found in terms of people that seek you out? Like, in terms of percentages? So, you know, learning edge. You've got, you know, I saw even at Realtors on there.
Mark Williams [00:38:03]:
So you've got realtors, you've got builders, you've got code officials. Maybe I might even missing some. Walk me through, like, the percentage of your demographics. Like, is it 20%, of which 130 percent. Like, who's coming to get educated, you know, by you specifically?
Daran Wastchak [00:38:16]:
Yeah, it's. It's actually a. It would be hard for me to give you a percentage because it's changing all the time. I'm teaching two realtor classes tomorrow and the next day. Realtors love our stuff because they want to understand the house that they're selling. Is it energy efficient? And if it is, what are some things I need to know about it? Home builders, they want to know how to get through the code. They want to know how to build their homes better, more energy efficient. And importantly, they want to know how to get their home to be ready for the energy Star for Homes program, because the energy Star program's got big federal tax credits.
Daran Wastchak [00:38:49]:
Mark by the way zero energy ready homes are $5,000 a house you might be leaving on the table. Now, five grand to you might not be a big deal in the big picture of what you have to do, but that's there. So I have builders coming to me to learn how do you. How do you. How do you build so that you can build an efficient home and maybe get those tax dollars? Architects need to design these things for builders, so they'll show up for that. But my biggest, probably my biggest demographic are the code officials. These are the, these are the plan reviewers. These are the people that are out inspecting homes to meet the code.
Daran Wastchak [00:39:23]:
So I would say probably if I had to give the largest percentage, but it's not 50%. It's a decent percentage, but it's not an overwhelming majority. It's not a majority by any means. It would be the code officials, the building officials. I need to understand this code that I'm trying to enforce. No one likes to go and enforce something that they don't understand and show up at a project where a home builder knows more than you about what you're doing. Then you do get kind of your egos up and you're like, I don't want to be wrong. And then you get adversarial.
Daran Wastchak [00:39:56]:
So I would say my biggest audience, Mark, would be code officials, if I had to, and then builders would be second, and then maybe home energy raiders and architects would be kind of that third tier group. That's the best I can give you in the way of demographics.
Mark Williams [00:40:13]:
I think that's helpful. How did you know? Early on, maybe let's go back to the origin of you starting learning edge as a standalone company. Did you see it scaling to what it is today? Talk us to a little bit about online portals. Obviously, the world has changed so much. Like any builder listening to this, we've sat in a number of continuing education classes where we've listed to building scientists, and I'm glad they've come in. As virtual classes become available and all this stuff, like the speed of information and the way you can consume it if you wish, it is much, much higher. And some people, it has to sort of be forced down your throat like, hey, this is in order for me to keep my building license, I have to have so many hours in order to get. And that's not all bad.
Mark Williams [00:40:58]:
I mean, it keeps it somewhat relevant. It's kind of like a book report. You've got to read the book, otherwise you don't knock on the test. Walk us a little bit through when you first had this idea to educate and where you're at today, some of the lessons you've learned.
Daran Wastchak [00:41:12]:
Yeah, great question. So while I still had my company doing home energy ratings, I wanted to educate home energy raters, share what I knew about how do you do an energy, how do you become a home energy rater? How do you do that work successfully? And so I started learning edge in 2010. I didn't sell my company until 2018. So there was eight years there where I was doing learning edge work as a separate company, small. Most of my time was invested in my rating business. And so, Mark, that's where it started. I wanted to educate the rating industry, and I was doing it also for my internal education of my own people internally, but I was also teaching people from outside. And then when I sold the company, I actually started doing work on business coaching.
Daran Wastchak [00:42:03]:
I was coaching small business owners on how to be successful. That's where I was kind of initially going. But then the utility company said to me, Darren, we would like you to do some teaching. We kind of collaborated, and they said, we'll sponsor you to teach. And it was a very low burn. It was not much sponsorship, and I was teaching. And then effectively what happened is that Covid hit, and when Covid hit the utilities, basically, at that point in time, said, darren, we need to do more teaching, and we'd like you to. We want to increase your budget.
Daran Wastchak [00:42:37]:
And they basically ten x'ed my budget. So it was great for my business. They're like, because the utility corporation, the Arizona corporation commission, they mandate that the utilities do training. Well, I was lucky enough, Mark, to already be in that space. They needed me. I needed them, and voila. Now I've got the sponsorship from the two largest utilities and even the third largest utility in Arizona, they sponsor my classes. And what I can say, few people can say, is that Covid actually was very good for my business because I wanted to be doing online.
Daran Wastchak [00:43:16]:
And the world really preferred prior to Covid, of course, in person classes, in person classes. But of course, we couldn't do that. So I pivoted like, the rest of the world is over to Zoom. Started teaching in Zoom, and I never went back. I do webinars and on demand. So the world now is acclimated to the workplace I wanted to be, which was virtual classes. Now, I will tell you, Mark, the last piece of that is that I have a lot of students that really, even though they might prefer in person, they really like a virtual learning experience and several reasons why. And over time, it's been very clear to me what those are.
Daran Wastchak [00:43:53]:
First of all, I can be in the middle of doing some work at the office. And then when 830 comes and Darren starting his class, I move over and I watch his class for 2 hours, two and a half hours that go by in a flash, by the way, because I sell, I teach a lot in my classes. All of a sudden it's like two and a half hours is gone. And then all of a sudden when we're done, they pivot over and they start doing the work they were doing before. They have to commute anywhere. They didn't have to waste any time on the front end of the back end, so it's more efficient. Secondly, when I'm in a classroom and you're watching me project onto a screen in front, a bunch of diagrams and details, you've got to kind of see what's going on up there. I found that people on an online experience, they've got that my PowerPoint slides are two inches from their face, right? Or eight inches or ten inches from their face.
Daran Wastchak [00:44:45]:
But you can see the details. You can capture it. I do handouts, fill in the blank as you're going along. You could do that in an in person class, but I do it virtually so that they retain the information. So I have found that virtual is very successful. But we did have to have that culture shift where people now got comfortable that I can take an online class and have a very good, worthwhile, educational, entertaining experience. And that's what I'm an entertainer, Mark. I've got to take information that is code.
Daran Wastchak [00:45:18]:
I mean, you can't think of anything a whole lot drier. You say you're pulling your eyebrows out. Yeah, that's what code is. And so my world is making it entertaining and making the dry stuff as education. I use lots of pictures. I do bullet points where I have to, I'll quote text, but I get that that's hard to watch. So I try to be as entertaining as possible. I love to teach, I love sharing my enthusiasm for people to build successfully energy efficiently.
Daran Wastchak [00:45:50]:
In all of my classes, I teach them because I love to teach those classes. I love to share that information with people. But I also know that they're going to walk away better off, even if they take 20% or 10% of what I teach and they put that into action, hey, it's a win because I've been able to successfully get them to do something different than when they started my class.
Mark Williams [00:46:11]:
So a lot of what you're saying resonates with me. I would say someone told me recently, and it sounds like you're an expert and a guide, which is kudos to you. Someone said, you can be an expert or you can be a guide. And let's say the podcast, for instance, I've chosen the role as a guide. And I do, like entertainment. We do a couple of live events a year, mainly because I wanted to interview people in front of a live audience. And so I enjoy. You mentioned the word entertaining.
Mark Williams [00:46:36]:
I really enjoy entertaining. I like to laugh. Who doesn't want to have a bit of a good time? And you remember stuff if you're relaxed, you know, if you're laughing, if it has little, you know, catchy bites in it and things like that. And my question is, if you are in teaching the digital format, how do you, how do you get that two way interaction? Because, like, in, the one thing that's beneficial to in person is you can, you can see a class falling asleep or nodding their head or checking their phones or laughing and being engaged or, you know, whenever I do a live event, I'd really try to involve the audience because I, you know, the reason the podcast setting works for me is I like to ask questions and kind of go back and forth. It's like we're playing volleyball. I don't do as well just, you know, going straight into it. How do you balance the entertainment side of it? Or how do you, I guess as a personality thing, how do you, you know, I'm saying, like, how do you get that interaction? Because you're talking into a camera, I assume.
Daran Wastchak [00:47:27]:
And in fact, I'll take it one step further. I do not put anybody on camera with me, and I do not let them audio. It's all in chat. At the end of class, I will take questions. Mark, I guess, to answer your question, I know that my format is, more than anything, a one directional deal. I know this, okay? I've been in webinars where people will try and do engagement with others. And sometimes it's like pulling teeth. People just want to kind of hide behind and watch.
Daran Wastchak [00:47:56]:
Look, don't involve me. I'm here just to learn. That's why I'm my safe space. And so I get it. I don't try and push people into any other space. What that means is that means I got to dance faster, I got to sing louder, I got to sing prettier. Right? I mean, I just know it's funny because I can teach a class with. I can.
Daran Wastchak [00:48:16]:
I can teach into a camera with nobody there. And I know I can be as enthusiastic and as, as entertaining to that camera in front of me as I can. If there's an audience now, I feel even better with as an audience. But out of necessity and teaching for the last, you know, I started teaching virtually, well, we're, you know, just say online was pretty much 2020. So the last four years I've been teaching online, you know, thousands of students, you know, hundreds of classes to course the year across the year. And I've just really gotten comfortable with understanding that my audience is there. And as long as there's somebody on the other side, I've got a, I've got to be as entertaining as possible. So it's a way, a different way of thinking.
Daran Wastchak [00:49:01]:
It may not work for you because you thrive on the interaction and whatnot. Well, I don't have that luxury. So for me I've got to be as exciting, enthusiastic as possible. And by the way, at the end of every class, Mark, I always say, would you like my presentation slides? Most people do. Great. Fill out my feedback survey at the very end and you'll get an email after you're done with that, with a link to download my thing. So I bribe all my students to give me and all they have to do is a one through ten mark. I ask three questions at the end of every single class.
Daran Wastchak [00:49:36]:
Every single class. Give me one through ten. If you want the slides, it would be nice if you gave me a little testimonial. Would you like? And what can I do better? Please. If there's something I can do to improve, give me that feedback. Every single class, hundreds of classes, thousands of students, I get feedback and my average score is about 94. 9.4. On a scale of ten.
Daran Wastchak [00:49:57]:
My average score after all of that is about 9.4. So I'm doing something right. I'm doing something.
Mark Williams [00:50:03]:
I think that's really, really fascinating. You're getting a feedback loop, obviously. Do you feel like reflectively, if you were to go back four years ago, if you were to rate yourself, how much better are you today in four years of practice than you are than when you started?
Daran Wastchak [00:50:19]:
Without question. So much better. So much better. Because a lot of people do the ums and the ahs when they're talking and they're presenting and, uh, and I've, I've spent, not to say I don't do that every now and then because I do, but I'm very sensitive to when I watch speakers, whether they're going to do that a lot. And I try and avoid it as much as possible. So I've become a much better speaker, a much better presenter, because I understand that there are little quirks that when you're in an audience, that will distract you. And again, I'm not perfect by any means. That's why I always ask for feedback.
Daran Wastchak [00:50:51]:
I've received it. Darren, you said I'm an awful lot. Oh, okay. Better be careful. Go back and listen to my stuff that I've done. Everything's recorded. I'll go back and watch them. Not everyone go back and watch a class that I taught.
Daran Wastchak [00:51:02]:
I'm like, yeah, that could be done differently. I should change that. Got to be careful there. So, yes, I am. By, I mean, I don't know how anybody, Mark, couldn't be better after.
Mark Williams [00:51:11]:
No, I completely agree. And I'm somewhat asking the question for myself, thinking about, and not only, like, I usually relisten to my own episodes on the podcast and things that I can, you know, basically self critique. It's no different than builders remodelers, though. You know, we go through a house and, you know, we usually ask our team, you know, we sit down for a lunch after we're done with the home for a couple hours with our design team and our project manager, and we'll list the things that we did well and the things we could. I mean, basically this feedback loop of getting better and better, right? And I don't think anyone expects anyone to grow at 1020 percent, you know, improvement, but, you know, 1%. Can you get 1% better per project, per day, per week? And just this idea that you're improving, and it is sort of interesting how far you can go. And I think a lot of times people don't give themselves enough credit. I think some, it's probably best if you actually have a way to rate yourself or to actually take deliberate action.
Mark Williams [00:52:05]:
So do that if you're doing that, great. But honestly, I think if you just continue to have the spirit of I want to get better, I think it happens organically. I mean, well, before I realized what I was doing, you know, you look back at homes, or for me, if I look back at homes that I built, you know, 1015 years ago, the quality was still there, but the sophistication and the process and a lot of what I do now, I mean, it's. It's. It's night and day. And I guess I'm glad because it'd be pretty bad if you went through a 20 year, 40 year career and you're like, I'm the same as I was four years ago. I guess that's a pretty, pretty sad state of affairs. I think as a business owner, if you're not getting better, it's a little bit like a fish.
Mark Williams [00:52:41]:
If you're not swimming, you're drowning.
Daran Wastchak [00:52:43]:
Yeah. And Mark, the reality is that you're successful because of the things you just described. And people are going to be successful because they are going to be always searching for, just don't settle for good enough. It's one of my core values for my company. Don't settle for good enough that for my company. Now with learning edge, I have three employees that work for me, and I have a set of core values that I developed. And I'm like, we have to live these core values and those core values. One of those is don't settle for good enough.
Daran Wastchak [00:53:15]:
Always strive to do better. Always educate yourself. Always look for making things better. Don't wait. Don't wait for things. You know, start looking for ways to improve. And, Mark, you wouldn't be, you would not be the company that you are if you didn't do things like that. And by the way, self reflection, evaluation, being open to feedback from your employees and your customers, that kind of approach to business says a lot about that business.
Daran Wastchak [00:53:45]:
But it's actually a symptom. That way of acting is a symptom of running a business in a certain way that is at a very high level, a very high quality business. They're going to have elements like feedback loops. They're going to have elements like always looking to do things better. When you look at the best companies that are run out there, small, large, whichever, they are going to have a set of characteristics that define them as a very good organization. And the best ones, you got to study them because they're going to be doing things like you just described, Mark, like we've talked about. So that's why you're successful. If you didn't do those things, you wouldn't be in business.
Daran Wastchak [00:54:27]:
Probably, what, 20 years, Mark, how long have you been in business?
Mark Williams [00:54:31]:
Yeah, 20. I think it's. Yeah, I think. I think one thing, too, going back to your speaking and just your ability to speak on camera for those out there that, you know, there's a lot of people now in my hemisphere that, you know, we're seeing so much more virtual presentations and, you know, seminars and not menus, but basically course guides where if you're not there, and it's great from a business standpoint, right. It's residual income. Like, I don't have to be, you don't have to be teaching a class, but someone could download it, honestly, anywhere in the world, right? So if someone in Australia wants to. Wants to learn about building envelope and, you know, great, there's resources. So it's never been more available than it is now to learn and to get that and from a business model I really like, whether it's subscription based, membership based, or single download based, all those things are viable.
Mark Williams [00:55:19]:
But where I was going with this is, I think a lot of builders are doing this more than they think they are with how prevalent social media is. And I'll take Instagram and YouTube specifically. You know, one of the biggest pieces of advice I ever have received was, you know, I think a plan is great. Obviously, we don't build a home without a plan, but there is no substitute for just doing it. And I'm thinking more of the public speaking and or just explaining. So you see so many builders now where they're just getting mic'd up, whether it's a selfie form of a video or someone on their team is taking a picture and they're explaining details. There's a huge hunger from your clients, our clients, that want to know about how is trim put in? How do you paint? How many coats of paint? I mean, honestly, there's no end of the diyer information. And not only your clients are interested in it to basically gauge, like, how knowledgeable are you about either running a business or doing a certain thing.
Mark Williams [00:56:14]:
But then there are plenty of our peers that will look to other peers and say, well, okay, well, what do they do? How do I do this? Or, you know, let's call it net zero. Obviously, net zero is much more common than it was 20 years ago. But, you know, whoever the person was that was, you know, publicizing net zero. And, you know, in the year 2000, or I guess 2004, you know, was probably an expert in their field by now. Obviously, that's 20 years. And so people were going to those people, now there's way more resources to get that. And I guess what I'm saying this is that I think the feedback loop, and that's how we improve, keeps getting shorter and shorter just because of how relevant the information is. And I think your story of just, you know, having only done this for four years and how far you've built out your course schedule is a testament to that, which is pretty impressive.
Daran Wastchak [00:57:00]:
Yeah. And I appreciate all the things that you said in terms of feedback, especially what caught my attention was that feedback to clients. I can imagine, Mark, you going through and doing a daily, hey, so this is what we did today. And they're like, man, if you packaged all that little video for your clients and at the very end gave them a video where they could go through and see their house being built, and they'd be like, man, you know that thing that mark does where at the end you get this video and now you can go back and watch your house being built? That's a point of pride for that homeowner, but it's a testament to you as well. So I like that idea. That's a good one.
Mark Williams [00:57:39]:
As we kind of come in here at the end here, where do you see learning edge his future? Like, what are you excited about in terms of your organization education? Like, what is this going to look like ten years or 20 years from now?
Daran Wastchak [00:57:51]:
Yeah, great question. And we're constantly evolving and looking for ways to improve what we do. We have moved our content, to your point a minute ago, to on demand. So I do a lot of live webinar classes. We are doing most of my classes, and even more of them are going to be available on demand so people can come and watch them 24/7 whenever they want to. So that's really the future is on demand, so people can watch when they want to, offering a variety of formats. We're also doing things like, hey, I have so much content now, Mark, that's available in my classes that we're now going to companies and saying, hey, are you interested in your company having maybe a one year subscription? So it's the subscription stuff. And when you have your one year, you can have ten people in your company.
Daran Wastchak [00:58:43]:
They can all have access, for one price for the entire year to all the content that's available. And whenever we add new content, you will automatically get it. Those are the kinds of things that we're adding in to grow what we're doing. I also want to expand, Mark, to other markets outside of Arizona to start offering the same exact webinar to their local clients or their local code officials, their local builders and architects. So how can I expand to touch more people? And a lot of that virtual allows that opportunity, Mark, to grow and offer more to more people. I'm going to be building my own house in the next couple of years, and I want to start documenting, Mark, that process. What am I going through for the design and the super energy efficiency stuff that I say I'm going to be doing? And not so much how to build a home, but how to build an energy efficiently. You're the expert, Mark, on how to build a home.
Daran Wastchak [00:59:41]:
Even though my background's in construction, I'm not telling people how to build a home. I'm telling people how to build the energy efficient home. How do you build the home so that it maximizes the energy efficiency? And so that way, in social media, I want to start sharing with the world so they can kind of follow along in an entertaining way, my building process, because I have a lot of people that are interested in when Darren builds a house, I do want to see what he's doing. And so I think there'll be an opportunity there to share more information in a. In a new format with more people. So that's kind of where we're going with learning edge into the future. I'm very, very excited about, especially next year when we get to do even more implementation with more of these things.
Mark Williams [01:00:27]:
So outside of Arizona, I mean, is there a lot of other, either companies or individuals or educators that are doing similar things that you're doing that you sort of run into? And you're like, you sort of created this because there was a need or you created this. There's a passion, and then you pick your head up and you're like, oh, wow, there's actually. There's more of us out here than I thought.
Daran Wastchak [01:00:48]:
It's pretty niche, but there are others that are offering education in energy efficiency. So I'm not alone. In fact, we actually try and collaborate with some of those people, meaning they might offer some of our classes because we fill kind of a gap in their curriculum. And then we have partnered with some large online companies to promote their classes because they have areas that we don't cover, nor do I want to cover, but it's valuable to our student base. So, yeah, there are. But it's, you know, it's a handful. We're not talking, you know, there's probably less than ten organizations nationally that are doing this.
Mark Williams [01:01:31]:
And you think of the opportunity, even if there is, let's call it competition. There's so. There's so many builders that need the information that you could never possibly, you know, fill that educational gap there. I mean, so really, it's kind of like the, you know, this, you know, community over a competition. It's like how many people? Because if you're. If you're. I suspect just based on how you're talking about your passion, about what you're doing, I mean, the only thing that would make you happier is just that more and more people seek to build better and better homes and then are able to, you know, I mean, it's, we're building homes is such a rewarding career because it's so tied into the american dream. And, I mean, it doesn't even have to be America.
Mark Williams [01:02:06]:
It could be the whole world, right? I mean, you're home is where your memories are. It's where your family is raised and most people. Someone asked me, actually, Zach Kelly, he was on several episodes before this one will air, and he asked me, you know, can you remember the address? You know, a few of your addresses? And I'm like, yeah, I can pretty much remember pretty much every address I've lived in. And that was his point. His point is that everyone has very strong memories to the homes that they lived in, especially when they grew up as kids, and just how important the home is. I bet you would almost be a funny way to, like, ask people, like, what are some, you know, epic fail stories or what are some, what are some things about your home that now, as a builder, now today, you look back on, you're like, oh, man, that's ridiculous. I can't believe that was in my home. I can't think of one right off the top of my head at the moment, but I'm sure just seeing how much a home has changed and, like, the amenities we have, I mean, obviously the simple stuff, right? Like Wi fi and this other stuff that did not exist when you were kids, kids, but just the home has become.
Mark Williams [01:03:04]:
I joke the other day that a lot of people won't know the reference to the Jetsons because they're too young. But, like, you know, and, I mean, a lot of these Sci-Fi shows and things like that end up becoming sort of prophetic because they sort of get involved into a home. If you look back at, you know, movies and, and tv from 30, 40, 50 years ago, you'll see stuff now in a home that you're like at the time, like, that was not only a crazy idea, but that was just like, I mean, it was so far out there that nobody thought anything of it.
Daran Wastchak [01:03:31]:
And now we start to see that there is one thing that I do in my foundational class, becoming a building science expert. There's a PE, there's a point in time at about 20 minutes or so into the class mark where I will stop and I show a picture of my first house and a real major flaw in my first house. And then I show that I fix it, and then I say, so I want to admit to everybody something. I'm going to admit something to you right now. That was my, this is my first house and everybody, oh, and I'm that. And then I go, but I want to ask a question. Then I do a poll question to my audience. I say, okay, we've been talking about how to build a house better, how to design a house better, how to inspect a house to be more energy efficient.
Daran Wastchak [01:04:13]:
I said, I want to know how many of you have thought of your own house since we started our conversation today. And then I throw a poll up, you know, my house is perfect. Oh man, I haven't looked, but I know I've got some of these things. Yeah, I got that. Or definitely I have like everything you've said. So I go through and I ask people, do you see these flaws? And everybody, yeah, I've got these problems in my house and, but it's a check in with those guys about how, how can we start to build differently? Your own house has these issues. As you said, it's a very personal thing to everybody. So keep in mind that it's personal to the people that we're trying to build homes for.
Daran Wastchak [01:04:52]:
It's got to be done right. It's got to be energy efficient. They're going to spend 100 years, not only them, but everybody that comes after them living in that house the way you left it for them. Energy efficient or energy inefficient.
Mark Williams [01:05:06]:
Now, thanks again for joining on. We'll have all your the websites and all your social handles in the show notes and appreciate you coming on, making the time and for everyone listening, we'll see you next week. We are happy to announce that we have a one to one coaching session that can be found on our curious builder podcast platform. So you can book a time with me and it'll be 1 hour to ask any sort of questions that you want. Talk about business, talk about life. Maybe you're dealing with a difficult client and you just want to maybe shop with another builder and say, hey, how do I handle this? Or maybe you're looking to rebrand your company, whatever it might be. You can head to our website and book a time and I'd be happy to sit down and give you that hour and we can talk about whatever's on your mind. The podcast has now been running for the last two years, and it's because of people like you that are listening to the podcast, spreading the word that our audience continues to grow.
Mark Williams [01:05:54]:
One of the ways that you as listeners can help support the show is head to our merch page, our shop page on thecuriousbuilderpodcast.com. you'll see that we have three different offerings now. We have a shirt that we partnered with harnish on. We have a hat from Bogo that I use for ultra running. It's also just incredibly sweat resistant. So for any of you guys are outside in the sun working, the hat looks great, but it's also extremely resilient to sweat. And then, of course, our hive notebooks. These notebooks are amazing.
Mark Williams [01:06:19]:
I was given one a couple years ago, and I've fallen in love with it. The paper is made out of stone. It's waterproof. It's tear proof. It's amazing. So if you like what you listen to, if you appreciate the show and the content that we're producing, please head to the shop page. You know, buy a notebook, buy two. Give some to your employees, give some to the guys in the field.
Mark Williams [01:06:35]:
We'd really appreciate it. Thanks for listening to the Curious Builder podcast. If you like what you listen to, please give us a five star rating and write us a review. It really means a lot. It's a great way for us to just understand what you like about the podcast and what we can keep doing. So like and review. And please share with your friends and family. Find out more@curiousbuilderpodcast.com.
Mark Williams [01:06:56]:
up.
Daran Wastchak [01:07:06]:
Close.
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